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All Forum Posts by: Patrick Kaiser

Patrick Kaiser has started 5 posts and replied 45 times.

Post: Top 3 Reasons Flippers Fail

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

At the end of almost every podcast for many years, they used to ask, "What separates those that succeed from those that fail?" or something along those lines. 

Over the years I've worked with somewhere in the range of around 20 flippers. For context I am a retail real estate agent. Generally speaking the flippers buy properties from wholesalers and I am not involved until sometime after they purchase the property. I only have a limited perspective, but from my point of view, these are the top 3 reasons flippers fail. 

#1) They are too greedy

In flipping you can sometimes make a lot of money. But on average, you might make $20-$30k on an average deal. I know sometimes you make more and inevitably somebody will comment they make $100,000 on every house, but in my experience $25,000 is a good expectation for an average budget flip.

However, most people, usually on their first flip, find this number to be not enough. They don't care about comps, they don't care about market, they just want to make more. So, they insist on listing their houses really high. For a short period there, we could still sell them sometimes but more commonly they would sit on the market for a month or two with the sellers somehow bewildered that the house which was listed 10% above all comps was sitting there while the houses around them were selling. 

After spending an extra $10,000 in holding costs and getting below list price offers, they end up breaking even or losing money on deals they could have made $20-$30k on. Instead of learning their lesson, if they try again, they usually make the same mistake to try and recoop their losses on the next deal. 

#2) They are too hands off

For some reason the flipping scene tends to attract people who just want to pay someone else to flip houses and just collect profit. If you've been in the business for a while and you have a flipping machine going on, fine, no problem. But if you just expect contractors to show up and do their jobs and everyone is just going to treat you fairly and do what they say they are going to do with no supervision you're living in a dream world. Many houses I show up and start taking photos of work done by contractors and send it to the owners including: bad drywall repairs, crooked cabinets, chipped counters, holes left in roofs, lights that don't work, loose toilets, baseboards never painted, drips and runs in paint,  cabinets never sanded (rough to touch look ok in photos) tile floors uneven, the list simply goes on and on. 

Most of the time when this happens I find that the owners have never been to the property and usually are shocked, like they just expected everyone to do their jobs well with no supervision. If you don't care, and some truly don't, fine, that's your business. But more often than not, once showings begin, we get lots of showings and no offers. Because it looks good in photos but awful in person. Again the outcome, sits on market forever, holding costs add up, hopefully they make money but it's far less than I had told them (because I'm using comps that were  decently remodeled and expect the same) and in the end they usually blame me. 

#3) They don't have a plan before they begin

The primary problem here is similar to problem #1 but the reality is not knowing how much the house will sell for when it is finished. It's not a perfect science but 90% of the time you can find comps that have been flipped and if researched properly you should be able to get within 1-3% of the final price (barring poor workmanship mentioned above). But I find a lot of flippers just look at one or two comps, don't do any research on their own, and just assume that if they do more work they can just raise the list price to offset their costs. It doesn't work that way. Market economics, supply and demand, appraisals, are all going to set a general cap on the MAX price a particular home is likely to sell for. If you start with that number, and work backwards, you can practically guarantee that you make money. But most of the new flippers I work with work in the opposite direction. They start with how much they paid, then they add their costs, then they tell me what they want to list at. And, remember #1, where even if they got lucky and could still make $10-$20k on the deal, many of the inexperienced ones squander all their profit on holding costs and lost time on market resulting in lower offers. 

I think it's interesting because when Brandon was asking this question, most of the people are successful and obviously haven't failed (hence why they are being interviewed) and although some have much more experience than me, when I start to see these red flags with new clients of mine, the likelihood of the person succeeding in the long term are very low. There are other reasons related to experience in the trades, knowing what kind of improvements to do or not do, things like that which are more specific to each project/person. But I find these 3 things to be the easiest way to predict if someone will succeed or fail in this business. 

Post: QOTW: What are/ were your first steps to scaling your business?

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

For me, as a regular real estate agent, scaling means getting rid of lead generation activities that are taking too much time and focusing on lead generating activities that produce the most reward. I'm also spending time automating my systems within my CRM and consolidating all data into one system. This is an ongoing project I've been working on for several years. I also automated several processes within my business while actually reducing my costs by over 70%. Even though that cost was not a big deal, being able to see everything in one place, from all deals in the pipeline all the way through closing and even beyond, has been a big benefit. I'm also scaling back my outgoing marketing costs and focusing on personal relationships that have been beneficial. Lastly, I'm working on a lead generation system so that I can sell most of my inbound leads for a referral fee rather than trying to work them myself. That will allow me to scale beyond what I can do myself since I have 6-10 active listings and generally 5-10 active buyers at any given time. That's basically my limit so the only way to continue scaling is to sell the leads I don't have time for. 

Post: Wholesalers- are people still buying flips?

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76
Quote from @Dustin P.:

Hey Patrick!

I know you and I talk about this a bit but here is what I am seeing

Before the last month we were selling deals at roughly 85% of ARV minus repairs. I try to put together a realistic ARV and the repair is I'm sure light by most people's standards (These are wholesaler deals). However I do not send an ARV or rehab number out with the houses, just pictures / comps and a price

I've tracked almost 100 houses that we sold that have been at least partially remodeled and resold on the MLS and I'm seeing an average of 9.5% above my estimated ARV. However I'm also sure that a lot of the ones that hit well above ARV also spent more on the rehab (I confirm when I can but people often don't want to give their true rehab numbers). I did some math on a lot of them and a lot of the deals, after selling, penciled out to between 76% and 83% of ARV minus repairs

A lot of this was obviously just the market being crazy. I anticipate this last wave of deals to be hitting a lot closer to the actual ARV I calculate using closed comps. I'm expecting this number levels out to 105% to 107% of estimated ARV by the year's end

As far as what price points, here's my data from May / June

May - 35 deals total, $14k average wholesale fee (High month for us, average month is more like 25)

Under $400k - 14 deals

$400k to $600k - 16 deals

$600k+ - 5 deals

June so far - 22 deals closed or set to close, $12.6k average wholesale fee

Under $400k - 13 deals

$400k to $600k - 8 deals

$600k+ - 1 deal

So at the lower price points we are seeing things still move very quick, typically sold within 8 hours, but the higher price point houses are moving slower and are also where our cancellations are higher. Our cancellation rate has hovered around 20% but I see this going to closer to 30-40% which is higher than I want to be

What I'm doing to combat this is

1) Better training for acquisition agents. When the market is red hot it's easier to be too light on rehab or push numbers too high because that's what you have to do to make your offer competitive. I've made over 1000 offers in the past 9 months or so and I track every one and a lot of investors beat out my offer by quite a bit. Obviously some of them have licenses so they're getting or waiving their commission, they may have seller credits that do not reflect in the tax records, but in general our offers have actually been light compared to a lot of others. However with the market shifting right now the numbers have to be a lot more on point so I have been canceling a lot more deals before we even send them out to buyers

2) More offers, better follow up, leaning more on agent relationships to find deals. Supply has almost doubled. That means I need to be sending double the amount of offers at least. I need to be better at catching deals that fall out from other wholesalers / investors, following up, and getting the deals cheaper. We are working on this

We are still selling deals. I just got one in Scottsdale $100k off list price and was able to mark it up $20k and sell it so the buyers are still out there. There's just far less speculation and buyers are falling into a few groups

A) Big buyers that have always and will always be buying, they are just adjusting down on numbers

B) Buyers that are afraid of the market and opting to wait and see what happens

C) Buyers that know we are in a market shift and are making hail mary YOLO offers to see what they can get (Which will work better now than when the market was red hot)

I'm actually glad we are shifting. The market was getting a little too crazy. I do 3-5 deals a year myself and it's always nice to be able to pick up deals at a steeper discount. I think once summer is over we will get a better idea of what the market is actually doing (Since at least for me the summer has always been my worst time for deals)


Good info. We are having no problems selling houses below $400 almost any part of town. I'm struggling at every other price point. In order to sell houses right now, we are generally pulling comps from December of last year. The most recent comps are too high. It differs based upon the part of town it is in, but that means in general we are adjusting list prices downward 5-10%. FYI I am a retail (MLS listing) agent not a wholesaler.

Post: Wholesalers- are people still buying flips?

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

Wholesalers-

Are the flippers still doing well and at what price points?

Post: Cannot Find a Contractor or Carpenter That Will Help

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76
Quote from @John B.:

Grady, I am a handyman based out of Phoenix, but have taken jobs all over the valley. I have multiple references that would be more than willing to give you verify and recommend my services. I’m absolutely not concerned at all about it being “too small” of a job. I can give you a flat rate quote or hourly.
I have been devouring BP podcasts all day long for weeks now, maybe we could work something out, you can tell me how got started/tips&advice/etc and in return I’ll give you a discounted rate on any future jobs you need done, a little quid pro quo action, I’m sold on the benefits of RE investments, but would like to not make those costly rookie mistakes. You can reach me at 480-243-0486; call/text your preference. Look forward to talking with you

please reach out to me as well I am an agent in Mesa and regularly need handymen to do jobs.

Post: Rookie Buying a STR in the Phoenix Area

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76
Quote from @Chad Cherry:
Quote from @Patrick Kaiser:

I had a friend that had a small an Airbnb management company and they ran analysis on the best ROI for airbnb and at that time, which in fairness was about 18 months ago (and they sold their business for 7 figures to some company out of California) but the two highest zip codes were 85032 which is actually Phoenix and then just Val Vista lakes but only if the house was on the water. Now, houses on water in VVL have skyrocketed, but IMO houses on lakes still represent a good value, but also 85032 but the house has to be unique and preferably on a hill or something. But property taxes lower in phoenix, close to airport, close to Kierland commons and many resorts and event center, close to Barrett Jackson, etc.

But I'd also like to point out that many many people I know who bought airbnb's in the last few years several who had 6 figure profits last year are selling today because bookings are down 50% this year and the future is bleak. If you're running AirDNA, just be aware that the numbers based upon past might be very very different from future revenues. 

edit: maybe this one?  https://www.flexmls.com/share/...


Thanks Patrick! That's the exact area that I've been leaning towards, as I've seen solid STR projections with reasonable home prices. Plus the rebuild of PV Mall just adds potential appreciation in the future (but not banking on that alone).

That's a great note about AirDNA and what you've seen with recent bookings! I haven't heard about it being down ~50%, so definitely something I need to dig more into. In a best case scenario, part of my strategy is to find one where the numbers also work as a LTR in a worst case scenario. This area seems to be perfect for lowering risk.

 please feel free to reach out to me if you have more questions about the area. 

Post: Is the Market going to crash

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

My advice to the flippers I have been working with:

Interest rates drove everyone's pre-quals down. Out of state buyers (here in Phoenix) we are repeatedly seeing them making offers hoping their houses in XYZ state would sell for XYZ price, then their offers are coming in lower than they hoped, also driving their purchasing power down. Right now the only thing I am seeing selling well are houses that are PRICED WELL compared to the competition. This sounds obvious, but a few months ago, even at astronomically high prices, what was selling well was NICE FINISHES. So there was a market for nicely done houses even in lousy neighborhoods. We struggled with appraisals but not contracts. 

So, the advice at least here in Phoenix is: lower price points, smaller flips, just clean it up, clean it up, clean it up, do bare minimum finishes, and price on the lower side of active listings and we are still doing well. My most recent flip (not mine but represented owner) was actually a $220,000 manufactured home on owned land (not a park) seller put $20k into it, and sold for a $65,000 profit. One of their most profitable flips ever and it was at the absolute bottom of the market. The reason is, everyone's pre-quals went down and there's hardly any inventory left in the under $400,000 price point. 6 months ago it was hard to flip these kinds of houses and make money, now it's the frickin rage. 

I don't know if its like here but my primary advice is do not aim for the top of the market in whatever price point you are in. All buyers are very price sensitive right now. 

Post: Rookie Buying a STR in the Phoenix Area

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

I had a friend that had a small an Airbnb management company and they ran analysis on the best ROI for airbnb and at that time, which in fairness was about 18 months ago (and they sold their business for 7 figures to some company out of California) but the two highest zip codes were 85032 which is actually Phoenix and then just Val Vista lakes but only if the house was on the water. Now, houses on water in VVL have skyrocketed, but IMO houses on lakes still represent a good value, but also 85032 but the house has to be unique and preferably on a hill or something. But property taxes lower in phoenix, close to airport, close to Kierland commons and many resorts and event center, close to Barrett Jackson, etc.

But I'd also like to point out that many many people I know who bought airbnb's in the last few years several who had 6 figure profits last year are selling today because bookings are down 50% this year and the future is bleak. If you're running AirDNA, just be aware that the numbers based upon past might be very very different from future revenues. 

edit: maybe this one?  https://www.flexmls.com/share/...

Post: It's all about the price right now

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76
Quote from @Mike Dymski:

@Patrick Kaiser @Scott E.@Bob Okenwa and others.  I'm curious...are the factors that drove the major correction in PHX during the GRC still in place or is the market in a better place now and, if so, why?  I have my thoughts but don't want to lead the witness.  I'm making a major commercial investment in PHX.  I'm also interested in understanding how much of the rental stock (not related to RVs, mobile homes, or condos) is dedicated to seasonal snowbirds, where is most of it located (Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler), and what happens to those homes from Apr-Sep in the offseason.  My investment is building a hybrid apartment/hotel; so, I'm wanting to better understand what will happen in the summer months to rental demand in certain areas when the snowbirds leave and which areas will have a greatest impact (if even applicable) to help assess my site selection.  Happy to jump on the phone as this is a loaded question.


I don't know exactly what % of rentals are seasonal as a number of the total, but I am pretty familiar with the 55+ areas since I'm literally surrounded by them on 3 sides of my neighborhood and my portion of Mesa has the highest concentration of 55+ neighborhoods I believe in the whole valley. A lot of seasonal people own their homes. 50% of all homes bought in 55+ neighborhoods are bought in cash and in general, the occupancy rate in such neighborhoods is somewhere between 25-40% in the summer. The # of seasonal rentals is probably not that many, however it is pretty profitable with seasonal rentals going for usually $2500-$3500/month depending on how nice the house is. A lot of people rent for a few years then get tired of it and buy. 

As to your other question, as to the factors that led to the last major price correction are they still in place? My opinion has always differed from experts on this subject. My opinion was never that bad mortgages led to the crash but rather the crash led to the failure of the bad mortgages. The underlying price of the homes, if they had been stable, the mortgages never would have failed. I think a lot of people overlook the fact that even though there were bad mortgage practices in the last recession, it wasn't like 50% of all homes were second homes that nobody was living in in Phoenix. It was like a few %. But when prices started to go down, it led to the sudden sell off and suddenly there were 50,000 homes on the market, THAT led to the crash. My opinion is that the same underlying causes of the crash of housing prices still exist in today's market, and probably to a greater degree, in essence that the run up in prices was too much too fast and once prices start going down, which they already are just hasn't had enough closings across the board at reduced prices to show up in data, then that will probably drive a panic selling equal to the panic buying which is exactly what led to the last crash. 

The difference IMO was that since lenders all failed or nearly failed in the last crash, and in some degree they have been tightened up, the correction will probably be more limited to real estate than the last crash, which nearly bankrupted the entire economy. But IMO the underlying cause of the crash is the same as last time, just the damage will be more limited now. The mortgages will foreclose but probably the banks will be ok. 

Of greater concern and something we've never seen before is that 20% of all homes in America are now owned by hedge funds/ corporations. Some % of these are flippers and tat stock will re-enter the marketplace but most of it is used as rentals. If rents start falling, and they are already falling in PHX as well, then I believe  lot of these hedge funds will dump houses. If house prices fall too far, it will be bad news for these hedge funds they will be the ones to fail this time round, not the banks. They will not be able to borrow their way out of trouble because interest rates are too high. Major real estate corps especially Zillow and Opendoor stocks already down over 50%, Invitation is down but not much... 

In a nutshell, my opinion is the underlying factors that led to the last correction are the same as this time. Panic and frenzy buying. Panic and frenzy selling are likely to follow. 

Post: It's all about the price right now

Patrick KaiserPosted
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Mesa, AZ
  • Posts 46
  • Votes 76

A few months ago, buyers preferred higher end finishes and were willing to pay a premium in almost all parts of town to see really nice stuff. This is in part what was driving prices up so wildly. Flippers were putting $100k into $300k houses and selling for $500k in neighborhood where that had previously been unheard of, surpassing highest comps by leaps and bounds. 


But now, price seems to be the only thing that matters. The tables have turned and turned quickly where the only thing that currently seems to be selling houses is the lower priced houses. OK finishes, better prices is what I'm seeing sell houses right now. 

Is that on track with what other people are seeing? I'm in Phoenix metro.