All Forum Posts by: Lam N.

All good points, of course.  Just that from my point of view it's just another thing to worry about.  

I am very careful with who I choose as tenants.  The tenants that I retain don't abuse.  For example, I  have a 4 apartment building all have 1 water meter.  That's how it came as when I bought it.  The water bill for it has never exceeded $200.  Not bad for 7 adults.  And they have all paid rent like clockwork.  

Yes, I've had tenants that abuse.  I've had one that ran the water bill up to $400 in one month.  I gave them a choice: they pay $300 out of the $400 for this water bill or I am not renewing their month-to-month lease.  Bill never exceeded $120 after that.

What I'm trying to say is there are methods to dealing with abusers without introducing headaches like putting in 50 submeters.  And since my properties are all over the metropolitan area (I don't just buy properties in one local area), having all those submeters would very quickly turn into a big pain in the *** for me.  

Oh, and property managers suck.  I will never use one ever again.

Just remember this.  When you advertise for the place, always tell them the price to take up residence plus utilities (water).  Don't just tell them the price that already has water included.  Because that is all they can think about.  And then they will compare your price with places that don't already include water.  So, say you want to charge $1000 just to live there plus water, tell them the place is rented for $1000 plus utility.  Then in the lease, do what I showed you.  Have a line that spells out how much to take up residence and a separate line to charge for water.  Trust me, it makes all the difference in the world.

Another thing is don't follow some of the advices on here of installing a submeter to charge them accordingly.  Think about it for a second.  Do you really want to go around and read every submeter every effing month from now to infinity?  Don't become one of those landlords that nickel and dime everything.  If you can't get past the insignificant details, you will never be able to see the big picture.  You can't plant a forest if you get too distracted by a bush or a leaf.

So, just figure about how much it costs for water and charge them that.  If they end up using significantly more than what you figured, inform them that you are upping that portion of the charges to reflect how much they use.  But for the love of god, don't become one of those landlords that nickel and dime everything.

10 years from now when you have 50 units, are you really going to be going around reading 50 submeters every effing month to charge each one accordingly?

 I'll be brutally honest here.  Sure, you can put in a submeter and then make monthly reading and bill the tenant accordingly.  But honestly, do you really want to nickel and dime to this extent?  And once you've expanded to more than a couple units, will you be able to keep up with this charade?  

Figure out what the typical cost is and just include that average amount as "utility" in the lease.  In my case, I figured that the typical tenant household uses about $100-130/month.  So, in my lease I spell out that to take up residence cost x amount and $100 for water.  

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying don't pay attention to it.  Still pay attention to it to see if they are abusing it.  If you start noticing that they are spending up to $150-200 each month then make changes to the charges accordingly.  

But really, do you really want to read 15-20 submeters each month?  How about when you've reached 50 units?  Are you really going to go around and read 50 submeters each month and bill each tenant accordingly?

Always come up with a system that not only work now but for the long run.  I am financially independent through my rentals and if I have to scramble around each month to read all the submeters of the units I have, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.  

Originally posted by @Bradley Padula:

Originally posted by @Lam N.:

No, not worth it.  The most expensive part is you have to install a new water line from the street meter into the house.  This meant digging up the ground between the street meter and the house.

The best way to deal with this is charge them an additional fee for the water.  I do $100 for mine.  So, in the lease it would look something like this.

Lam N, Is this a New York only thing where a new line has to be run off the street meter? I didn't know street meters existed, I've only seen properties where the water meter is within the basement of property tied into whererever the main water line from the street enters the property

In Mass, you simply tee off the existing water main line entering within the properties basement and add a second meter that feeds all of the other unit's water piping, so nothing needs to be done on the street side at all and its not expensive besides plumber costs. Water bills stay in owners name, water/sewer addendum signed at lease signing, and copy of MA submetering of water/sewer certification form where the plumber is certifying of low flow fixtures are installed is included with lease as well. Owner pays bill to make sure it is always paid up, and tenant pays amount of bill back to owner within x number of days (established in lease)

 Most likely, the meter in your house is secondary.  There is a main meter that the city uses to make readings out near the street.  This is why you can plumb all you want inside your house but they require the water bill to be in your name (the owner) because they don't actually read from the meter inside the house.  Trust me, they are still reading from the meter out in the street.

No, not worth it.  The most expensive part is you have to install a new water line from the street meter into the house.  This meant digging up the ground between the street meter and the house.

The best way to deal with this is charge them an additional fee for the water.  I do $100 for mine.  So, in the lease it would look something like this.

 Ok, I can accept that everyone has different experience and knowledge.  But you are conveniently ignoring the fact that myself and many others have said that our observation is they don't want to learn or improve themselves.  They have no skin in the game.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter what we tell them.  Every time they have a problem, the first thing they do is call the housing authority, not the landlord.  

They are professional victims.  They play the victim card very well.  

 Ya, speaking of doors, for some reason this seem to be the universal thing about section 8 tenants.  They always bust the doors.  I never figured out what the hell they did to bust those doors.  And they always demanded I fix those doors on my own dime.

I'm glad I'm not the only one willing to admit to having observed this.

These people and their children are trapped in the system.   In a way, they literally never grew up.  Normal tenants (people) had to learn basic life skills to maintaining a home.  Like not to pour grease down the drain.  Or press the reset button of the gfci if it popped.  Or keep the windows closed when it's raining so the hardwood floor doesn't get drenched.  Or turn off the lights when not in use.  Or turn off the tv when not in use.  Or clean up the food to keep ants and bugs away.  Or not flush tampons down the toilet.  

You know, very basic life skills.  But a lot of these people have been taken care of by the system for so long and generation after generation that they never had to learn these very basic life skills.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm as liberal as anyone can be.  And I used to be all for public housing to help the poor.  But after having dealt with section 8, I have completely changed my mind about that.  On the business side, it's a pain in the rear to deal with.  It's like dealing with children.  On the moral side, I can no longer support such a system that trap people in perpetual helplessness.

 Has nothing to do with race.  My properties happen to be whiter than white areas.  The sec 8 tenants I had problems with in the past were all white.

Nowadays, I'm not denying anyone anything.  All I am doing is not participate in section 8 program.  Perhaps one day in the future I will do it again.  But for the moment, my current strategy is working wonderfully for me without participating in section 8 program.  

I've done this long enough to have had all kinds of tenants.  Here's my observation.

The more educated/intelligent the tenants are the easier they are to deal with.  For example, I have a paramedic as a tenant.  Last time the motion sensor light went out in the backyard he told me about it and promptly went out bought another one and installed it himself. He's actually a pretty handy guy.  

Another one is a college educated banker and his wife is in IT.  They actually take care of the property really really well.  Even though they have 5 cats you would never know that they have 5 cats because they keep the place spotless clean.

On the other hand, one of my tenants is a family I inherited from the previous landlord I bought the property from.  I keep them around beause they are nice people.  But god damn they are lazy as hell and dumber than rocks.  The whole family is on disability.  And by golly, they complain about everything.  One time they wanted me to come all the way out to tighten a loose screw.  My more educated tenants would have tighten the screw themselves.

Section 8 people tend to be difficult to deal with because they are at the bottom of the barrel.  We are talking about people who are perpetually poor and they keep themselves that way.  They keep themselves helpless.  Hence, they don't want to know anything and they don't make any effort to better themselves.  

Honest to god, I am not making this up.  One time I had a section 8 family complain to me that they got ants. They have tried raid and everything else but the ants kept coming back.  So, I dropped by to see what was going on and the first thing I noticed was their kitchen was a mess.  Food everywhere on the countertop and sugar crystals from soft drinks everywhere.  I had to explain to this family that if you leave food out it will attract ants.  They honest to god did not know this.  After they followed my advice, the ants went away.  

Again, I swear I am not making this up.  

My point to those reading this is sure go ahead and go with section 8.  But be prepared to deal with people dumber than rocks.  They wouldn't be on section 8 if they were any better than that.  Most of the time, they can't even help it.  They are literally that difficult to deal with.  

Also, this is something my parents taught me.  It is human nature to not value things that are free or discounted.  Section 8 (along with food stamps and other types of welfare) is literally the definition of free and/or discounted stuff.  Take this to its logical conclusion.

Nowadays, I veer more toward college educated young couples.  They are pleasant to deal with and they always pay on time.  They are hard working and ambitious.  No more section 8 for me.