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All Forum Posts by: Dennis Li

Dennis Li has started 2 posts and replied 17 times.

Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:

Hi professionals and fellow investors!

I've just purchased my first property, and I have a question for Ohio state long term rental properties. I have just closed a 4-plex with tenants inside. All the tenants are recruited by the previous seller, so I don't know their credits and don't know their personalities. Now I want to protect myself from any potential lawsuits from them.

I'm debating between an umbrella insurance and a LLC. Here are my thoughts, and why suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!

1. Regarding annual cost, LLC is better. To get an umbrella that covers my net worth, it would cost me $600 more every year. Whereas Ohio states does not have renewal fee for an LLC, except a one-time setup fee of $99, plus a fee to get lawyer to setup and transfer deed for me for $1000 in total.

2. Regarding total potential loss, Umbrella is better. Per my understanding, if I have an Umbrella that covers my net worth, then even if I lose on a lawsuit, I will not lose any asset. However, losing a lawsuit may cost me the property, which is worth about $200K.

3. Regarding daily operating, Umbrella is better. I don't need to worry about anything with Umbrella, but for LLC, I need to follow the operation agreement and keep in mind not mixing personal and business bank account.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts, and how do you make decision in this case?

Thank you very much!!

Few questions:
1. Do you have $200k in equity in the property? (value minus loan)?
2. What are you afraid of getting sued for?
3. What does your PM agreement state regarding indemnification
4. If you self manage, its not uncommon for a lawsuit for the manager to be named personally, so LLC would not help there.
5. We have found in Ohio if you are out of state LLC you are definitely targeted for violations for often than an individual.
6. Whose name is on the loan?
7. Did your LLC do a cash transaction and actually buy the property or did you just transfer it (this can get pierced like hot butter)

So the answer is it depends. If you buy it and set it up as a LLC, then great, if you are one of the buy it in my name then transfer it, your protection from a good attorney is zero. But the reality is unless you are groslly negligent, insurance would cover 99.9% of any lawsuits.
Note not an attorney just providing my 2 cents.

 Thanks Chris for the checklist!

1. I have about 50K in the property, the rest is loan.

2. I'm just in general afraid of getting sued and loss my other assets. Haven't been landlord before, so now just anxious.

3. The PM agreement states that they will charge $115 per hour for legal proceedings.

4. Not self manage.

5. Oh no..

6. My wife and I are on the loan now, so it is a personal loan.

7. I just want to setup LLC and transfer deed.

Why would the "buy and transfer deed" have zero protection? I thought most people do it this way.


An LLC is to be completely separate from you and treated as such. Do you typically deed other people a property and keep paying the mortgage for them in your name?

Think of an attorney on the stand questioning how was the LLC kept separate when it didnt pay for anything?

(fortunately you will never get there because of insurance so all of this is mute point as residential properties rarely (search BP for lawsuits) get sued and not covered by insurance).


In my case, I will transfer the deed to the LLC, and have a business bank account under the LLC, and all the rental/expense will be using that business bank account. I will only use my personal bank account for the property until the business bank account is setup.

I assume this avoid the issue you are mentioning here?


nope it will not. you are TRANSFERRING not selling. As I mentioned in the past, do you just transfer properties to any non arms length transaction. Will you transfer me properties for free, or another poster here on BP? Of course you will not give someone a free house. When you give your LLC a free house, how is that arms length? And you will say the LLC is paying the mortgage- well tell that to a judge when the loan is in your name.

If you want asset protection buy it and finance it in the LLC. Just transferring it gives you zero protection - the reason why it never comes up is because no one can name ways you get sued when you have a good insurance policy so its a mute point

So long story short, you are wasting money transferring it to a LLC is my personal non legal non tax opinion.


 Thanks for the honest opinion Chris!

I'm sticking with Umbrella that covers my net worth.

Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:

Hi professionals and fellow investors!

I've just purchased my first property, and I have a question for Ohio state long term rental properties. I have just closed a 4-plex with tenants inside. All the tenants are recruited by the previous seller, so I don't know their credits and don't know their personalities. Now I want to protect myself from any potential lawsuits from them.

I'm debating between an umbrella insurance and a LLC. Here are my thoughts, and why suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!

1. Regarding annual cost, LLC is better. To get an umbrella that covers my net worth, it would cost me $600 more every year. Whereas Ohio states does not have renewal fee for an LLC, except a one-time setup fee of $99, plus a fee to get lawyer to setup and transfer deed for me for $1000 in total.

2. Regarding total potential loss, Umbrella is better. Per my understanding, if I have an Umbrella that covers my net worth, then even if I lose on a lawsuit, I will not lose any asset. However, losing a lawsuit may cost me the property, which is worth about $200K.

3. Regarding daily operating, Umbrella is better. I don't need to worry about anything with Umbrella, but for LLC, I need to follow the operation agreement and keep in mind not mixing personal and business bank account.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts, and how do you make decision in this case?

Thank you very much!!

Few questions:
1. Do you have $200k in equity in the property? (value minus loan)?
2. What are you afraid of getting sued for?
3. What does your PM agreement state regarding indemnification
4. If you self manage, its not uncommon for a lawsuit for the manager to be named personally, so LLC would not help there.
5. We have found in Ohio if you are out of state LLC you are definitely targeted for violations for often than an individual.
6. Whose name is on the loan?
7. Did your LLC do a cash transaction and actually buy the property or did you just transfer it (this can get pierced like hot butter)

So the answer is it depends. If you buy it and set it up as a LLC, then great, if you are one of the buy it in my name then transfer it, your protection from a good attorney is zero. But the reality is unless you are groslly negligent, insurance would cover 99.9% of any lawsuits.
Note not an attorney just providing my 2 cents.

 Thanks Chris for the checklist!

1. I have about 50K in the property, the rest is loan.

2. I'm just in general afraid of getting sued and loss my other assets. Haven't been landlord before, so now just anxious.

3. The PM agreement states that they will charge $115 per hour for legal proceedings.

4. Not self manage.

5. Oh no..

6. My wife and I are on the loan now, so it is a personal loan.

7. I just want to setup LLC and transfer deed.

Why would the "buy and transfer deed" have zero protection? I thought most people do it this way.


An LLC is to be completely separate from you and treated as such. Do you typically deed other people a property and keep paying the mortgage for them in your name?

Think of an attorney on the stand questioning how was the LLC kept separate when it didnt pay for anything?

(fortunately you will never get there because of insurance so all of this is mute point as residential properties rarely (search BP for lawsuits) get sued and not covered by insurance).


In my case, I will transfer the deed to the LLC, and have a business bank account under the LLC, and all the rental/expense will be using that business bank account. I will only use my personal bank account for the property until the business bank account is setup.

I assume this avoid the issue you are mentioning here?

Quote from @Jimmy Lieu:
Quote from @Dennis Li:

Hi professionals and fellow investors!

I've just purchased my first property, and I have a question for Ohio state long term rental properties. I have just closed a 4-plex with tenants inside. All the tenants are recruited by the previous seller, so I don't know their credits and don't know their personalities. Now I want to protect myself from any potential lawsuits from them.

I'm debating between an umbrella insurance and a LLC. Here are my thoughts, and why suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!

1. Regarding annual cost, LLC is better. To get an umbrella that covers my net worth, it would cost me $600 more every year. Whereas Ohio states does not have renewal fee for an LLC, except a one-time setup fee of $99, plus a fee to get lawyer to setup and transfer deed for me for $1000 in total.

2. Regarding total potential loss, Umbrella is better. Per my understanding, if I have an Umbrella that covers my net worth, then even if I lose on a lawsuit, I will not lose any asset. However, losing a lawsuit may cost me the property, which is worth about $200K.

3. Regarding daily operating, Umbrella is better. I don't need to worry about anything with Umbrella, but for LLC, I need to follow the operation agreement and keep in mind not mixing personal and business bank account.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts, and how do you make decision in this case?

Thank you very much!!

I own 10+ rentals in Ohio and I put all of my rentals in one LLC. I don't personally have an umbrella policy but if you do want to be extra safe, yes, I would recommend an LLC and umbrella policy together.


 Thanks Jimmy! In your case, if you lost a lawsuit (hopefully you will never encounter that), then aren't you risking losing all your rentals at once?

Quote from @Charles Carillo:

@Dennis Li

Why not get both? You can add additional properties to the LLC as well. Your risk tolerance and net worth depend on how many future properties you would add. I also feel $1,000 is a bit high to set up an LLC and QuickClaim a property.


It's just having both cost more money, and managing LLC seems to be troublesome. Good to know that $1000 is higher than market. Then I can try to find someone cheaper. The 2 lawyers I asked, one is $1000 and another one is $1600, both includes setting up LLC and transfer deed.

Quote from @Chris Seveney:
Quote from @Dennis Li:

Hi professionals and fellow investors!

I've just purchased my first property, and I have a question for Ohio state long term rental properties. I have just closed a 4-plex with tenants inside. All the tenants are recruited by the previous seller, so I don't know their credits and don't know their personalities. Now I want to protect myself from any potential lawsuits from them.

I'm debating between an umbrella insurance and a LLC. Here are my thoughts, and why suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!

1. Regarding annual cost, LLC is better. To get an umbrella that covers my net worth, it would cost me $600 more every year. Whereas Ohio states does not have renewal fee for an LLC, except a one-time setup fee of $99, plus a fee to get lawyer to setup and transfer deed for me for $1000 in total.

2. Regarding total potential loss, Umbrella is better. Per my understanding, if I have an Umbrella that covers my net worth, then even if I lose on a lawsuit, I will not lose any asset. However, losing a lawsuit may cost me the property, which is worth about $200K.

3. Regarding daily operating, Umbrella is better. I don't need to worry about anything with Umbrella, but for LLC, I need to follow the operation agreement and keep in mind not mixing personal and business bank account.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts, and how do you make decision in this case?

Thank you very much!!

Few questions:
1. Do you have $200k in equity in the property? (value minus loan)?
2. What are you afraid of getting sued for?
3. What does your PM agreement state regarding indemnification
4. If you self manage, its not uncommon for a lawsuit for the manager to be named personally, so LLC would not help there.
5. We have found in Ohio if you are out of state LLC you are definitely targeted for violations for often than an individual.
6. Whose name is on the loan?
7. Did your LLC do a cash transaction and actually buy the property or did you just transfer it (this can get pierced like hot butter)

So the answer is it depends. If you buy it and set it up as a LLC, then great, if you are one of the buy it in my name then transfer it, your protection from a good attorney is zero. But the reality is unless you are groslly negligent, insurance would cover 99.9% of any lawsuits.
Note not an attorney just providing my 2 cents.

 Thanks Chris for the checklist!

1. I have about 50K in the property, the rest is loan.

2. I'm just in general afraid of getting sued and loss my other assets. Haven't been landlord before, so now just anxious.

3. The PM agreement states that they will charge $115 per hour for legal proceedings.

4. Not self manage.

5. Oh no..

6. My wife and I are on the loan now, so it is a personal loan.

7. I just want to setup LLC and transfer deed.

Why would the "buy and transfer deed" have zero protection? I thought most people do it this way.

Hi professionals and fellow investors!

I've just purchased my first property, and I have a question for Ohio state long term rental properties. I have just closed a 4-plex with tenants inside. All the tenants are recruited by the previous seller, so I don't know their credits and don't know their personalities. Now I want to protect myself from any potential lawsuits from them.

I'm debating between an umbrella insurance and a LLC. Here are my thoughts, and why suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!

1. Regarding annual cost, LLC is better. To get an umbrella that covers my net worth, it would cost me $600 more every year. Whereas Ohio states does not have renewal fee for an LLC, except a one-time setup fee of $99, plus a fee to get lawyer to setup and transfer deed for me for $1000 in total.

2. Regarding total potential loss, Umbrella is better. Per my understanding, if I have an Umbrella that covers my net worth, then even if I lose on a lawsuit, I will not lose any asset. However, losing a lawsuit may cost me the property, which is worth about $200K.

3. Regarding daily operating, Umbrella is better. I don't need to worry about anything with Umbrella, but for LLC, I need to follow the operation agreement and keep in mind not mixing personal and business bank account.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts, and how do you make decision in this case?

Thank you very much!!

Quote from @Rene Hosman:
Quote from @Dennis Li:

Hi BP!

I'm new to real estate investment, and plan to invest in long term rental properties. I live in Los Angeles so I'm looking for out-of-state properties. Would really appreciate to suggestions on which area/market I can research on!

Here are some of my wishes:

1. Positive cashflow, ideally if more than $200 per door

2. Purchase price less than 250K

3. Landlord friendly

4. Locations with good potential for future job growth and non-fragile economy, diversified industry/business

5. Locations OTHER THAN Columbus/Dayton OH or OH in general (I'm checking the area now, but would like to know places in other states too:) )

I've looked at Tucson and Tempe but the price seems too high. Las Vegas maybe suitable, still researching...

Thank you very much for any suggestion! If any of my bullet points are not clear or too naive, please let me know!


 Hey Dennis! Have you checked out the BiggerPockets market finder tool? Investing is such a personal decision, and I certainly think you did the right thing by starting with your own research and then reaching out to the community for input. This tool may help you take a deeper look at markets and maybe find markets that are you to you as well. Combined with the deal finder which will show you actual listings in the market once you identify the market, you can take a lot of the guesswork out of your research!

https://www.biggerpockets.com/markets
^Market finder tool

https://www.biggerpockets.com/deals
^Deal finder tool

Thanks @Rene Hosman! I will check this out!

Quote from @Alex Craig:
Quote from @Dennis Li:
Quote from @Alex Craig:

There are so many. Start my a place you would want to visit so that you can take a mini-vacation.  Look for cities with low taxes, no state income taxes and friendly landlord laws. I put those criteria into ChatGPT and came up with. BTW, the list TN. I live in West TN and have build a nice size portfolio,  but if you can find a deal in East TN, I would jump on that. 

If you're seeking states with no state income tax, low property taxes, and landlord-friendly laws, consider the following options:

1. Wyoming

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is approximately 0.56%, among the lowest in the U.S. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Wyoming has no rent control ordinances, allowing landlords to set rental rates freely. The eviction process is relatively straightforward, typically taking about three to four weeks. Real Wealth

2. Texas

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: While Texas has no state income tax, it compensates with higher property taxes. The effective property tax rate ranges from 1.6% to 1.8%, depending on the county. MarketWatch
  • Landlord Laws: Texas is considered landlord-friendly, with laws favoring property owners in areas like eviction processes and rental agreements. LawDepot

3. Tennessee

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is around 0.64%, below the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Tennessee has favorable landlord laws, including no rent control and a streamlined eviction process. Real Wealth

4. Florida

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is approximately 0.83%, slightly below the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Florida is known for its landlord-friendly regulations, with no rent control and efficient eviction procedures. Real Wealth

5. South Dakota

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is about 1.22%, close to the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: South Dakota has favorable landlord laws, including no rent control and a straightforward eviction process. Real Wealth

 Thanks for the suggestion @Alex Craig! Maybe I'm worrying too much, but I have one concern over the criteria you have here: "no state income tax, low property taxes, and landlord-friendly laws". There is no consideration of population/job growth.

In my opinion, economy is the foundation of a market. If an area has continuous population decrease or negative job growth, I wonder why that is a good place to invest. As an example, Memphis's population has been decreasing since year of 2000. What makes Memphis an attractive place for long term rental?

@Dennis Li  it’s my backyard, which definitely makes it easier. I always recommend investing in your local area if you can. I’ve been purchasing rentals here since 2006 and have built up a sizable portfolio. While Memphis has seen some population decline, most of that is to the suburbs, with higher-income individuals seeking newer construction. There’s also been an shortage of inventory in the $500,000+ price range. For me, Memphis has been a great place to invest because I don’t have trouble finding renters. Even with more rentals coming on the market due to private equity buying up properties, my homes rarely sit vacant for long. I make sure to renovate and maintain them upfront and during tenant turns. The homes I manage for others that experience extended vacancies usually do so because the owners want maximum rent without putting in the necessary work to make them competitive to others in the immediate area. Memphis is, and likely always will be, a blue-collar city. It’s a strong renter’s market, even more so now with declining homeownership rates. While we may not be the “next big thing” like Austin or Nashville, you don’t need an explosive market to succeed in real estate. If you can identify that next booming market, go for it—get in early before prices skyrocket. For example, we opened a Gus’s Fried Chicken in Knoxville six years ago and another one last year; when we opened doors back in 2018, Knoxville was an emerging market, and we bought a couple of homes there for rentals that worked out well. We bought low, collected rent for a few years and then cashed out. Now, the real estate market has exploded, and there’s little left to buy that can cash flowl Meanwhile, I keep building my portfolio in Memphis and Little Rock. These markets are consistent and easy to cash, making it easier to grow my portfolio compared to chasing the next big thing. We’re also opening a Gus’s in Chattanooga, and while I’ve found a couple of decent deals there, the cash flow is not as good as what I get in Memphis or Little Rock. Any purchases in Chattanooga will be speculative—if they cash flow even a little, that’s fine with me. This was a very long way of saying, Memphis cash flow’s and I can rent my houses out reasonably quick. It has worked for me for 17 years. Several of mine are not paid off and many more will be over the next 5 years. I turned 48 this year and chasing speculative markets is not going to be my thing. I am past that. Now looking for stability and cash flow.

 @Alex Craig Thanks a lot for the overview of your journey!

You definitely have a great advice that I don't need to find the next big thing in order to cash flow, as long as it is stable. As for a blue-collar city, do you see the maintenance and repair cost of your rental to be a bigger part in your expense compared to other cities? Or has it become a bigger part gradually?

Quote from @Nicholas L.:

@Dennis Li

hello. unfortunately, with prices and interest rates where they are, you are going to have to put a substantial amount down in order to generate $200+ per month in cash flow.  and you'll need a property in good shape - ie not needing a lot of capex - for cash flow to be steady.  a big ticket item like a roof or a furnace or even a few appliances can wipe out cash flow for years, depending on how you factor it in to your numbers.

and... i just don't know if this is a good use of your capital.  if you add up a hefty down payment + closing costs + rent ready costs... that's a lot of cash for a $250K property, and so your return is going to be pretty low.  do the math.

i also would not buy in any market that you haven't been to at least a couple times in person so you can see properties in person and try to set up your team.  can you buy a great rental in a good neighborhood in Pittsburgh for $200K?  yep.  would i recommend that someone from CA who has never been here pick out a random $200K property on Zillow and buy it, and hope for the best?  nope. nope. nope.  the property might look great and have shiny countertops, and then you'll find out there's a water drainage issue in the backyard, and then the furnace breaks in year 3 for no reason, and then the dishwasher needs to be fixed even though it's brand new.

and again - i'm a broken record on this - i would just re-set your expectations for 'cash flow.'  you're just not going to start netting $200 a month in month 1 and take off from there.  the first few years of owning a property is typically a stabilization period.  it's in years 10+ that things really take off - rents have hopefully gone up, you've paid down the mortgage some, etc.  those first few years can be unpredictable and the cash flow can be lumpy.

hope this helps - not trying to be negative, just trying not to sugarcoat things.

 Thanks a lot @Nicholas L.! Yes, with the current interest rate, it is indeed hard. I don't like to bet my money on purely appreciation, because that may or may not happen. Stock market is strong now, so a rental property really needs to have good numbers on paper in order to make sense.

Yes I totally agree that I should not just buy a property off Zillow, and I appreciate that you point this out! If I have narrowed down the market, I will personally checkout the neighborhood and some properties. I'm afraid that's all I can do as a person living in CA...

The other option for me is not doing real estate, but I also don't want to miss the opportunity to invest in fast growing cities. Very headache LOL

Quote from @Alex Craig:

There are so many. Start my a place you would want to visit so that you can take a mini-vacation.  Look for cities with low taxes, no state income taxes and friendly landlord laws. I put those criteria into ChatGPT and came up with. BTW, the list TN. I live in West TN and have build a nice size portfolio,  but if you can find a deal in East TN, I would jump on that. 

If you're seeking states with no state income tax, low property taxes, and landlord-friendly laws, consider the following options:

1. Wyoming

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is approximately 0.56%, among the lowest in the U.S. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Wyoming has no rent control ordinances, allowing landlords to set rental rates freely. The eviction process is relatively straightforward, typically taking about three to four weeks. Real Wealth

2. Texas

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: While Texas has no state income tax, it compensates with higher property taxes. The effective property tax rate ranges from 1.6% to 1.8%, depending on the county. MarketWatch
  • Landlord Laws: Texas is considered landlord-friendly, with laws favoring property owners in areas like eviction processes and rental agreements. LawDepot

3. Tennessee

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is around 0.64%, below the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Tennessee has favorable landlord laws, including no rent control and a streamlined eviction process. Real Wealth

4. Florida

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is approximately 0.83%, slightly below the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: Florida is known for its landlord-friendly regulations, with no rent control and efficient eviction procedures. Real Wealth

5. South Dakota

  • State Income Tax: None.
  • Property Taxes: Effective property tax rate is about 1.22%, close to the national average. Real Wealth
  • Landlord Laws: South Dakota has favorable landlord laws, including no rent control and a straightforward eviction process. Real Wealth

 Thanks for the suggestion @Alex Craig! Maybe I'm worrying too much, but I have one concern over the criteria you have here: "no state income tax, low property taxes, and landlord-friendly laws". There is no consideration of population/job growth.

In my opinion, economy is the foundation of a market. If an area has continuous population decrease or negative job growth, I wonder why that is a good place to invest. As an example, Memphis's population has been decreasing since year of 2000. What makes Memphis an attractive place for long term rental?