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All Forum Posts by: Jonathan R.

Jonathan R. has started 13 posts and replied 568 times.

I have several D and a couple C properties. It’s all about being a leader in the community. I love the Section 8 housing program in these areas. I personally would rather have a government deposit each month than an A class renter even, but that is me. Treat people well, and they might stay out the duration of their lives. Provide a gorgeous product and be a responsive landlord, easy. Also, I try to pretty much stay out of their hair once they are placed. If you move to evict for being dirty or something trivial, you’ll make less than I do. :)

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

By being a professional, dedicated slum lord. Apparently it works, if you're willing to have that be your life. 

Wrong. And good landlords resent that mentality.

Originally posted by @Jim K.:

As you said, different markets surely require different practices. Just like we are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

Are you throwing Orwell at us?  

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Jonathan R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Jonathan R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Jonathan R. the new rule requires a realtor to list on the MLS within 24 hours of marketing the property. So that means the "coming soon" yard signs can only be there one day before it hits the MLS. It means they can't spend days shopping the deal to private buyers. It was voted by a large majority, so it seems most realtors are in favor of this. The idea is that being a realtor and part of the MLS comes with responsibility to play by common rules. If one realtor is sitting on listings, trying to get seller and buyers commission, it is not fair to other realtors who may have a buyer interested.

I am sure some realtors will just disregard the rule or find a way around it. I will be honest, I get sick of the "coming soon" signs. They can sit for weeks like that. My thought is either list it or don't.

This does bring up the issue of wholesalers with realtors licenses. This technically requires a realtor to list a property on the MLS. If you are advertising for sale, it has to go on the MLS. Of course every wholesaler is advertising because you can't find a buyer without advertising. Yes calling your buyers list is advertising...

Here is an article talking about the rule that goes into effect in January 1, 2020 but not enforced until May.

http://loanguide.com/2019/11/22/pocket-listings-banned-nar/

I wonder how it is going to work when a seller directs you as an agent to NOT list it on MLS.. this happens a lot especially with HIGH end or commercial type properties were the seller does not want to advertise to the world they are selling. ?

I saw an article that said some or all of those conditions you mentioned, Jay, will likely still be okay, to protect tenants or the uber wealthy, CEOs signaling they are moving to the market etc; and I’m sure that will come with even more fun grey.

YUP there are all sorts of reasons someone would not want a property on MLS.. but safety and the risk of theft etc are a few.

What is your overall consensus at first glance, Jay? Was this move good for the common realtor, or the industry as a whole? How about the realtor that is an investor trading off market properties? Smooth move by NAR? Or an overstep perhaps? What do you think? :)

really don't have an opinion in it since its not something I personally deal with on a day to day basis.. I know my wife who is a resi realtor does though.. and its already the law that listings must go in the computer within a certain amount of time.. The coming soon signs probably don't have official listings signed up yet just verbal promise of one ????  But again sellers control this stuff to a large degree. 

Agents who are wholesalers I see this having a big impact on if they are forced to put things in MLS .. but I have never really understood how the realtor wholesaler works anyway..

Very cool, thank you for your reply and Happy Thanksgiving!

Brokers do deals with everyone. That is how they are involved with wholesaling. :)

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Jonathan R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Jonathan R. the new rule requires a realtor to list on the MLS within 24 hours of marketing the property. So that means the "coming soon" yard signs can only be there one day before it hits the MLS. It means they can't spend days shopping the deal to private buyers. It was voted by a large majority, so it seems most realtors are in favor of this. The idea is that being a realtor and part of the MLS comes with responsibility to play by common rules. If one realtor is sitting on listings, trying to get seller and buyers commission, it is not fair to other realtors who may have a buyer interested.

I am sure some realtors will just disregard the rule or find a way around it. I will be honest, I get sick of the "coming soon" signs. They can sit for weeks like that. My thought is either list it or don't.

This does bring up the issue of wholesalers with realtors licenses. This technically requires a realtor to list a property on the MLS. If you are advertising for sale, it has to go on the MLS. Of course every wholesaler is advertising because you can't find a buyer without advertising. Yes calling your buyers list is advertising...

Here is an article talking about the rule that goes into effect in January 1, 2020 but not enforced until May.

http://loanguide.com/2019/11/22/pocket-listings-banned-nar/

I wonder how it is going to work when a seller directs you as an agent to NOT list it on MLS.. this happens a lot especially with HIGH end or commercial type properties were the seller does not want to advertise to the world they are selling. ?

I saw an article that said some or all of those conditions you mentioned, Jay, will likely still be okay, to protect tenants or the uber wealthy, CEOs signaling they are moving to the market etc; and I’m sure that will come with even more fun grey.

YUP there are all sorts of reasons someone would not want a property on MLS.. but safety and the risk of theft etc are a few.

What is your overall consensus at first glance, Jay? Was this move good for the common realtor, or the industry as a whole? How about the realtor that is an investor trading off market properties? Smooth move by NAR? Or an overstep perhaps? What do you think? :)

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Jonathan R. the new rule requires a realtor to list on the MLS within 24 hours of marketing the property. So that means the "coming soon" yard signs can only be there one day before it hits the MLS. It means they can't spend days shopping the deal to private buyers. It was voted by a large majority, so it seems most realtors are in favor of this. The idea is that being a realtor and part of the MLS comes with responsibility to play by common rules. If one realtor is sitting on listings, trying to get seller and buyers commission, it is not fair to other realtors who may have a buyer interested.

I am sure some realtors will just disregard the rule or find a way around it. I will be honest, I get sick of the "coming soon" signs. They can sit for weeks like that. My thought is either list it or don't.

This does bring up the issue of wholesalers with realtors licenses. This technically requires a realtor to list a property on the MLS. If you are advertising for sale, it has to go on the MLS. Of course every wholesaler is advertising because you can't find a buyer without advertising. Yes calling your buyers list is advertising...

Here is an article talking about the rule that goes into effect in January 1, 2020 but not enforced until May.

http://loanguide.com/2019/11/22/pocket-listings-banned-nar/

I wonder how it is going to work when a seller directs you as an agent to NOT list it on MLS.. this happens a lot especially with HIGH end or commercial type properties were the seller does not want to advertise to the world they are selling. ?

I saw an article that said some or all of those conditions you mentioned, Jay, will likely still be okay, to protect tenants or the uber wealthy, CEOs signaling they are moving to the market etc; and I’m sure that will come with even more fun grey.

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @Mary M.:

Thinking further, perhaps there needs to be a investor network with its own set of rules and laws and then the retail network with its other own set of laws. With rules that sripulate how a property can go from one to the other (rules on listing, etc etc) i dont understand the ways of NAR enough to know how this could work but maybe an idea? This would allow investors to sell/buy as they wish. And retail clients to be protected..

I like this idea, it would also help ensure a balance of power. The realtor brand has ethical standards realtors must abide. It will be interesting to see if the NAR throws up additional red tape.

I actually have an idea, how about a free market (with minor but fair oversight)? It’s America.

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @John Michael Thomas:

I have no doubt that there's lots of opinions on this subject on both sides.  And there's pros and cons both ways.  But since I'm a data geek, I tend to try and let the data guide my opinions.  Here's some data that may shed a little light on it.

I ran an analysis of just under 40,000 transactions in and around Riverside California from 2018-2019 (from the CRMLS - California Regional MLS). In this data, homes that were marketed for several days before they were officially listed sold, on average, for close to 1% more than homes that were not pre-marketed (0.8% to be more precise). Here's the actual numbers (in the format days of pre-marketing: difference in sale price):

  • None: 0%
  • 1-3 days : +2.1%
  • 4-7 days: +1.2%
  • 8-15 days: +0.4%
  • 16-21 days: +0.9%
  • 22-30 days: +0.6%
  • >30 days: -0.3%

So on average, homes pre-marketed for less than 30 days, which are ultimately listed on the MLS, sell for more than those without. The optimum pre-marketing time is less than a week, but it's not zero, and the price increase of 1-2% for 1-7 days pre-marketing is significant. Obviously this is just within one area, but the analysis I've done in other areas with smaller data sets confirms this - pre-marketed homes sell for more money, on average, than those that aren't marketed before they hit the MLS.

And that's just price.  The effect of pre-marketing is even more pronounced on the success rate of selling a home.  The success rate of selling homes which were pre-marketed for 4-15 days was 9.7% higher than the success rate of selling homes which were not pre-marketed at all.  What that means is that listings which are not pre-marketed at all were about 10% more likely to either be cancelled or to sit on the market so long that the listing contract expired.

So overall, while this change may have been popular with realtors in the NAR (although my wife is an NAR member and was never asked about it...), it's likely to actually work against home owners and agents - and even the market as a whole, since it will ultimately suppress prices. The good news is that the effect on the market as a whole will be minimal, since only 2.4% of listings (about 1 out of every 40) in my analysis were pre-marketed at all.

To those concerned about conflicts of interest, I think you're right, but I think when we talk about pocket listings and coming soon listings, those are often two different things. True pocket listings never get listed, and I think there are sometimes some conflicts of interest there that ultimately are not in the seller's best interest. Of course, since these are never actually listed, it's hard to get good data to look at these to confirm this suspicion.

However even if you could completely ban pocket listings without banning pre-marketing, that would not be without its own problems.  Sometimes the reason a home becomes a pocket listing is because the home owner explicitly does not want their home publicly listed.  There can be many reasons for this, but one fairly common reason is that they don't want their neighbors or family to know they're selling.  If the new rule prevents this, it will be a loss for both these home owners and the agents who they contact.  Again, this is a very small percentage of sales, but it suggests that the new rule may be a little too heavy-handed in its approach.

This is a fantastic post and analysis! I not only like it because it seems to agree with my initial take on the news, but it was well thought out and well supported. My question in all this is how far NAR will take this, will they use this decision to regulate the off market even further? I see they don't want realtors involved in pocket listings, but how are they going to react with transactions involving a wholesaler on the sellers side if they discover a realtor is involved in the buying side of a wholesaled property. Are they going to stretch to discipline engaging with wholesalers in general if a seller complains about the transaction, only to find out a realtor was involved with the buy? Since the realtor bought from the middleman, should the seller know and have disclosed to them that the true end buyer is a realtor or has a realtor involved. This may get deeper as NAR continues to try over regulate.

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Sometimes what is good for the buyer is good for the seller, if the seller is volume/relationship oriented. A good seller wants the buyer to win, the relationship continues to evolve with good deals. The realtor, whether they are the actual seller or represent the seller, is known as a go to person in the area, which is awesome. Some investors do not want to be their own face! The realtor is doing a tremendous service to their seller by becoming known and a resource for the community. This type of realtor has become personally more valuable to the seller than any mls service could ever be simply sorting deals by price for people to scroll through. The NAR, where they are intending to or not, is killing the relationship side of the business between the realtor and the investor off market. Awful.

Post: Pocket Listings to be banned by National Association of Realtors

Jonathan R.Posted
  • Investor
  • Wichita, KS
  • Posts 584
  • Votes 812
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Jonathan R. the new rule requires a realtor to list on the MLS within 24 hours of marketing the property. So that means the "coming soon" yard signs can only be there one day before it hits the MLS. It means they can't spend days shopping the deal to private buyers. It was voted by a large majority, so it seems most realtors are in favor of this. The idea is that being a realtor and part of the MLS comes with responsibility to play by common rules. If one realtor is sitting on listings, trying to get seller and buyers commission, it is not fair to other realtors who may have a buyer interested.

I am sure some realtors will just disregard the rule or find a way around it. I will be honest, I get sick of the "coming soon" signs. They can sit for weeks like that. My thought is either list it or don't.

This does bring up the issue of wholesalers with realtors licenses. This technically requires a realtor to list a property on the MLS. If you are advertising for sale, it has to go on the MLS. Of course every wholesaler is advertising because you can't find a buyer without advertising. Yes calling your buyers list is advertising...

Here is an article talking about the rule that goes into effect in January 1, 2020 but not enforced until May.

http://loanguide.com/2019/11/22/pocket-listings-banned-nar/

If a realtor wants to find an investor client a property, they should turn off dancing with the stars like the rest of us and find a meetup and see some cool off market properties.