Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 54%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$69 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
×
Try Pro Features for Free
Start your 7 day free trial. Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties.
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: John Sayers

John Sayers has started 1 posts and replied 130 times.

Post: đź‘‹Unpopular opinion about sponsor acquisition fees

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108

 @Scott Trench and @Chris Seveney are on point. All within reason and it seems too many are beyond reason. Gurus teach quick cash grabs as the norm.

I've seen GPs churning 6+ deals a year, pulling in Millions in day-one fees and the LPs basically take on all of the equity risks. Asset management is not top focus for those that are very busy at closing the next deal.

For new investors: For example, a $50Mil deal can be configured to pay $1 Million (or more) day one, get poor AM, pay no distributions, forced fire sale year 3, and pay another $1 Million in disposition to GPs. It can pay debt and leave not enough to pay the LP 80% of their equity back. Aligned? All new LPs should at least run some of the ugly scenario numbers, based on the legalese in the OA/PPM etc. and see if the docs are really as risk aligned as they should be and/or are claimed to be.

Most PPMs list a fee as a percentage and not with the dollar amount. One may ask themselves "why force the LP to calculate the percentage is = $1,000,000 of their equity on day one?". Not sure, but a few will list it clearly, and that's better transparency.

38 items are not complex and frankly any syndication GP that does not include them by default (or most of them) is likely catering to less sophisticated  investors. There could by 50+ questions (w/ background item etc) that do not need asking of the professional grade GP as they have already provided the due-diligence material for the LP perusal up front. No Family office, Fund or Institutional investor would touch a deal that didn't bring the basics up front. They sure are not going to stop and take time to ask for what should have been delivered to begin with.

Post: Are You Giving Your Syndicator A "Free Spin"?

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108
Quote from @Scott Trench:

Good perspectives here. 

It looks like I will walk a lonely road of requiring those who I invest with to have material skin in the game, and will find those opportunities few and far between. 

That's totally fine, and I will probably miss out on a lot of good opportunities!

I believe that investment is fundamentally different than a service like a dentist, personally, and that operators behave differently when they can not only win, but also lose painfully. 


 Less traveled but not alone. For sure if a GP can almost never lose capital or very little, it's not quite as aligned as it could/should be. The biggest push bback will be from the GPs in the arena. Feel free to share finds with me. I'd love to add more to my monitor list.

Post: Utilities and maintenance

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108
Quote from @Faustin Hoover:

Thank you. I know most rentals in the area the tenants pay for utilities. It doesn't allow for much cash flow as is that's why I was curious. Not sure what the RUBS system is.

Ratio Utility Billing System.
A way landlords can bill back portions of utilities to tenants. Search online for more. Before implementing this system, check with the regulations of your state regarding utility companies to make sure you are allowed and, if so, what limits might exist on the amounts you can bill back to tenants etc. Consult with someone that does it and/or with one of the third-party billing companies that do it.
" It's second position debt. It has all the characteristics of second position debt. It earns an interest rate.  Returns are often capped (because they are essentially interest). It's  junior to the bank debt. While it can sometimes get advantages similar  to equity for tax treatment or even participate in depreciation in certain structures, for all intents and purposes, investors need to view it as a loan. Junior to the bank.
"

100%! Especially for the broader BP audience.

Some may nitpick the details and nuances. My banking background says it looks like a loan, acts like a loan...
So many overlook the nuances and don't consider that it's clearly a loan equivalent without any traditional lien or foreclosure capacity or rights. One of the worst type of loan positions.


Post: Marketability of Newly Developed Mobile Home Park.

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108
To me, there is always a buyer out there IF the location, cost, size, utilities etc. match what's in their buy box. The buyer's price vs your sale goal may or may not align of course. If you can put out more information that could better guide a potential buyer, that would not hurt. Currently it may be a bit too much of the ether level to get much specific input yet.

Post: Is it worth getting inspection on 6-unit property?

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108

Unless you have well rounds skills and knowledge in the structural and MEP arena, NOT doing it is a Vegas type gamble.

Quote from @Jessie Dillon:

just my 2 cents.. i'm not a fan of the syndication model. there are better ways to invest more passively where you have more of a say in what goes on, can achieve higher returns, and can have your personal interests at a higher priority.


Can you elaborate on the better ways? Thanks!

Post: Are You Giving Your Syndicator A "Free Spin"?

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108

@Scott Trench co-invest percentages may be high, but aside of co-investments / "skin" numbers etc., he is quite spot on that the overall risks are normally too lopsided. "Heads they win, tails they win." is a horrible model for the investor. It's the foundation of the Wallstreet fund model; things some investors are trying to distance from, yet get stuck in still via many syndication models. I will throw out deals that have 5 different fees and all at maximum levels. The gold rush made a lot believe they earned something that they have not. It's just how many guru classes are taught. Some sadly teach how to exploit and manipulate the new investors. Raising capital is a popular class/topic that is not always taught with best intentions.

I am with@Brian Burke  on "The dirty little secret is that alignment of interest in a sponsor/investor relationship is impossible". With that, it does not by any means imply that the current methods, percentages, fees, contracts etc. are the very best version to reduce/lower the misalignments to a smaller delta than the current status-quo.

Sadly, Scott is right that many deals are setup so that if a LP loses capital the GP still has profited; many do so on day one! Only a few have claw backs in the docs, and the rare will step in and forfeit unilaterally (but rarely contractually) to try to make things right. LPs should also not forget that the docs are written by the lawyers of the GPs and they represent the interest of the GP.

Some GPs will give 10+ reasons why one method is more "aligned" than other etc. As always, opinions are, just opinions. Note that when the words "incentive" or "incentivizes" are used, the reasoning tends to be often aimed at the lower level of scruples and integrity type of person. A low moral person needs more external incentives to stay involved in a deal they sponsored but is now a major challenge. A high moral person will not run nor only think just of self. LPs should think about the content of the taught alignment concepts, as well the source. Consider if they could have any inherent bias.

Ultimately, the most important thing is a GP that is honest, skilled, fair and actually acts like a fiduciary. The % of skin is below all that. 
Brian says it better: "What is important is finding a sponsor that has experience, a track record, a strong management team, a strong  balance sheet, and perhaps most importantly, a brand and reputation to protect. On top of that, you want someone who understands that their interests are not aligned with yours and can and will prioritize and balance your interests over their own. That trait can't be measured in dollars."

As long as there are a ton less savvy or under-educated investors (be it stocks, bonds, RE etc), the markets will be overly tilted to GPs that never really are at risk to lose any capital, even in a crap deal. The syndication market can do better. But will it and how?

@Scott Trench

Post: What happens if you can't participate in a capital call?

John SayersPosted
  • Specialist
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 136
  • Votes 108
Quote from @Arn Cenedella:

@Asa Hunt

Check PPM and Operating Agreement. 

I suspect if you don’t put up more cash your equity percentage ownership will decrease. 

Say it was a $1M raise to begin with and you put up $100,000, you own 10% of the LP equity. If sponsor needs to raise say $250,000 and you don’t put up your share your equity position is reduced as follows:

$100,000/($1M plus $250,000) equals 8%. 

Your equity share in the deal is now 8%. 

I think you need to evaluate . Can the deal be saved? Or is it going under?

Lots of folks in your situation.  

Sorry and good luck. 


Not a lawyer nor legal advice:

Not enough info to really get enough clarity. A fair % of deals are written to do exactly like Arn Cenedella noted. A percentage dilution of the owner's shares. HOWEVER they can put absolutely anything in a contract.  The blurb you noted seems to imply that this one may be the kind that is a bit more harsh as far as the outcome for the LP who cannot participate.

Reads (but ask legal) as if the LP may be cutoff from any future periodic distributions and if it eventually sells for a non-loss with funds left over to return to investors, the LP is set to receive the "balance in the Member’s Capital Account". HOW that balance is defined, calculated and interpreted is what will likely determine the balance due to the LP when/if sold.


All a wild guess and best to get a formal legal review for an interpretation of the specific signed docs.