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All Forum Posts by: John Hyre

John Hyre has started 3 posts and replied 66 times.

Post: Quitclaim to LLC, Due on Sale Clause Triggered

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Due on Sale is a constant issue when transferring assets to an entity. Most people do it and don't tell the bank. In those cases, there is a risk that down the road the bank may call the loan due, say when interest rates go way up and you have a low-rate loan. If you tell the bank, they often refuse to allow it unless you get a commercial loan which will be another 1 to 1.5% interest rate. No perfect solution, this is definitely a case of "choose your poison". What matters more - the asset protection that the LLC provides or a point of interest (which can really add up to a lot of money)? Or get both low rate and LLC protection but risk bank calling sweet low-rate loan later when rates are higher? My personal preference with rates low now and inflation likely at some point (of course, I have been saying that for years) is a commercial loan that allows LLC to hold property with no "call" clause on the loan. A bit higher rate, much lower than rates are likely to be once inflation hits, locked in at an historically low rate, if not quite as low as non-commercial personal loan (which is what almost everyone gets and is what causes DoS issues). I have seen some trust schemes that purport to "get around" DoS issue. With exception of personal residence, those schemes would not work if challenged.

Of course, for LLC to matter at all for asset protection purposes, it needs to be properly run and reasonably capitalized, among other things. I could pierce 70%+ of REI LLC's. REI set them up and do very little to maintain them.

DoS clause does not negate asset protection of LLC - it just means bank has an automatic excuse to call the loan due and/or foreclose. Linda Weygant is spot on, don't take legal advice from CPA's, though many are willing to give it. Attorneys are typically more paranoid, they tend to avoid giving advice outside of their specific area of expertise, especially where taxes are concerned; they fear the liability.

Thanks to Jayson Medhurst for Fannie Mae link, I had not seen that before.  I'd still make sure that the change in use of the property is "permitted", that's probably in the loan docs and often requires use as a personal residence initially.  Which means if the property was purchased for investment from day one and the loan was not for an investment property from day one, there are two problems:  The DoS exception Jayson linked to does not apply, and by saying one would live in a property when one had zero intention of doing so, one has probably probably committed loan fraud.  

On the other hand, if loan docs permit use as an investment property from day one and local law allows that use (because the term "permitted" has no definition in the linked regulation - permitted by whom?  I'd make sure permitted by "everybody", bank and local law unless we can find a definition elsewhere in the law/reg that narrows the meaning of that word), then you are probably safe from DoS issues with Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

Here's the relevant language from Jayson's link:

"a limited liability company (LLC), provided that

  • the mortgage loan was purchased or securitized by Fannie Mae on or after June 1, 2016, and
  • the LLC is controlled by the original borrower or the original borrower owns a majority interest in the LLC, and if the transfer results in a permitted change of occupancy type to an investment property, such change does not violate the security instrument (for example, the 12 month occupancy requirement for a principal residence).

The "if" is important, as is the answer to the question "what is a permitted change"?

Post: BEWARE: How Cost Segregation is sold to you

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Spot on, nice post.  And I'll add:  It also gets sold to people who cannot use the losses, usually due to PAL situation.  Great tool.....sometimes.

Post: IRS withholding refund?

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Sounds like a tantrum and another person to add to my "Run Away! Run Away!" List. VA has nothing to do with the Feds. That's just raw speculation, paranoia, and scapegoating....dangerous traits in a client. That the money was taken out later than you wanted is a minor issue unless it cost you money (penalties, etc.). I see no indication of that.

Forgot you had realtor income?  That'd be more serious if you gave her docs (1099's, list of expenses, etc.).  Not clear from the context - you mention that you mentioned it, but I cannot tell what material you gave her, if any.  

But your overall attitude (especially your response to Carl) & approach scream "fast to blame others" and "difficult person, not worth the money, next".

Post: Wholesaling in retirement accounts not legit

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Carl, actually taking title (real title, not a simultaneous close which is just another version of wholesaling) with IRA funding purchase with its own cash and then selling is legit. May have to pay UBIT, depends on volume of sales & other facts, similar to the "dealer" issue in regular/non-IRA tax law. IRA could also borrow and take title using those funds, then have UBIT for sure.

Post: Wholesaling in retirement accounts not legit

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

And yeah, I understand that "everybody is doing it".  Last I heard, "everyone" is smoking weed too.  Like it or not, law is law.  IRS has been very negligent on SDIRA audits - and they know it.  Take a look at the recent GAO report in that regard.  If you want to play audit lottery....that's on you.

My job is to tell you what I think the law is.  I'm pretty aggressive and love to find ways for taxpayers to keep their money.  But sometimes telling you the law means telling you things you do not want to hear.  This is one of those times.

Post: Wholesaling in retirement accounts not legit

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Carl Fischer had reminded me of an article I wrote two years ago.  The gist:  Wholesale deals in retirement accounts will get crushed by the IRS once they get around to auditing them.

The Mazzei Roth IRA Case – An End to Magical Schemes

By Attorney John Hyre

With SDIRA & RE clients across the country

Iralawyer.com

The Tax Court took a major step in the direction of curtailing SDIRA abuse. The case will put the kibosh to a great many "IRA Stuffing" schemes – of which I have seen a myriad.

Basic Description

The transactions in this case were pretty typical for a lot of what we've seen in Tax Court cases – and the Tax Court was clearly sick & tired of dealing with it. In this case, the taxpayer's Roth IRA set up a company ("Roth Inc.") and "invested" a $500 nominal amount in it. The taxpayer's business ("Taxpayer Incorporated") paid Roth Inc for services. The services were deductible to Taxpayer Incorporated, mostly tax-free to the Roth, and resulted in large amounts of money ($533,000 in this case) being "stuffed" into the Roth. Magic! Creative! Superior tax planning!

Bogus.

The Tax Court correctly ruled that transactions were bogus, that they constituted excess contributions to the Roth, and imposed a tax of about $40,000. [1]

The Court's reasoning is very important to REI. Based on "substance over form" principles, it ruled that the IRA did not really own Roth Inc for two main reasons:

  • The IRA was exposed to no significant risk; and
  • An independent person in the IRA's shoes could not realistically have expected a benefit.

Since the IRA did not really "own" Roth Inc, the income really belonged to the taxpayer – and putting that money into the IRA resulted in a taxable "excess contribution".

More specifically, the court held that a $500 investment, absent any other significant risk, does not give rise to any real risk for the IRA. The IRA had no real skin in the game.

The court also asked what benefits an independent holder of Roth Inc’s stock could realistically have expected based on the objective nature of the stock. An analysis of the transactions showed that Taxpayer Incorporated had 100% control over whether commissions were paid at all as well as control over how much was paid to Roth Inc. In this case, Taxpayer Incorporated even had the ability to reach in and pull previously paid commissions out of Roth Inc. Because the relationship was very friendly (“incestuous” is probably a better word), that control was not used against Roth Inc. But if Roth Inc were owned by a completely independent party, Taxpayer Incorporated would have no reason to pay commissions to Roth Inc. In other words, an independent owner of Roth Inc would have no reasonable expectation of upside if the parties were truly unrelated.

So, the IRA had nothing at risk and no reasonable expectation of upside but for the parties in the relationship being all cozy. Simply put, the structure & scheme were bogus. The Tax Court therefore ignored what was "on paper", looked at what was actually going on ("the substance"), and imposed the over-contribution tax.[2][3]

This case spells the end of most of the “magically stuff your Roth” schemes I have seen. For example:

Taxpayer has his Roth enter into a contract to buy a property for a mere $100. The Roth then sells the contract for $20,000 to an investor. Presto, the Roth has lots of money!

Not so fast. First off, I think the Tax Court would view such a transaction as "running one's personal services (here brokerage services, aka putting buy & seller together for a fee) through a Roth", treat the profit on the "assignment of the contract" as personal services (which they are), treat the money in the Roth as an excess contribution, and penalize the taxpayer for failure to file the excise tax return (Form 5329) & failure to pay the tax thereon. I'd note that the excess contribution and the penalty thereon continue every year into perpetuity until the excess contribution is pulled out or slowly converted to a regular contribution at the rate of $5,500 ($6,500 if IRA owner is 50+ years old) per year.

In light of this case, I think that the Court would certainly view an IRA with the described assignment deal as "not at risk" – all it has in the deal is $100. The court would also find that if the creator of the contract were an independent person, the IRA would have no reasonable expectation of upside because no independent person would do all that work (e.g. – find an excellent deal, gather a list of buyers, etc.) for nothing & contribute that work to someone else's IRA for nothing.

In short, such transactions would be deemed bogus (“no substance”) and disallowed.

Ditto "Magical Option Contracts". I've seen a number of deals where a Roth buys an option on a "financial friend's" real estate "rehab & retail" deal for $1,000 or so. The strike price is such that the option is going to result in lots of money to the Roth IRA, usually $10,000 to $20,000. Of course, few people have friends who are willing to functionally give away 5-figure sums – there's always a quid-pro-quo or payback of some sort, somehow, somewhere. So: The IRA is not at risk ($1,000) and nobody would do this deal with an unrelated party. In short: Bogus.

Oh, but the IRS will never figure it out! Hmmmm. Take a look at this case and the vast amount of detail the IRS uncovered. Or the Block Industries case from the Summer of 2017 where the Tax Court unraveled a "Magical Options Contracts Make Roth IRA Instantly Huge" scheme. Or just ask me about the 2 Roth IRA audits I directly handled (and took to Tax Court). In all of these cases, the audits were very, very thorough and the details came out.[4]

There are so many legitimate ways to make lots of money in IRA's & other self-directed accounts. There are also legitimate ways to make very small accounts into very large accounts. The Tax Court is on to BS games & bogus shortcuts. Just do it right from Day One and avoid the Magic That Never Was.

[1] Roth Inc paid tax on some of its profits, but at a low rate because of its status as a “Foreign Sales Corporation” or FSC.

[2] The taxpayer got very lucky. The statute of limitations had passed for the IRS to audit Taxpayer Incorporated and disallow the deductions for commissions paid to IRA Inc. In addition, I am willing to bet that the statute of limitations had also passed for Prohibited Transactions. Either one of these items could have cost the taxpayer far more than a mere forty grand or so.

[3] The taxpayer’s CPA was at least somewhat on the ball. He filed Form 8886, Reportable Transaction Disclosure Statement. That filing matters immensely because these sorts of transactions are “Listed Transactions” (see IRS Notice 2004-8) – meaning that if a taxpayer does not report them (most do not), then a fine of 75% of the taxes saved would have been due – that’d be on top of the taxes owed and the other penalties & interest due! Of course, filing that form is likely what caused the audit to begin with…..

[4] I took on two SDIRA audits directly and consulted on multiple others. The two I took on both went to Tax Court – and the IRS ultimately decided to concede the cases rather than go to trial in both cases. In short, both of my clients paid zero to the IRS.

Post: Criminal Offense for Not Registering LLC in Cleveland, OH

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

@Kristopher Hanks, I second that.  Following the law isn't always hard.  Beats the elaborate schemes of Asset Protection Salesmen to avoid a simple (at least in some places) requirement.

Post: Criminal Offense for Not Registering LLC in Cleveland, OH

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

@Christopher Smith,

Yeah, ain't that the truth.  

Post: Criminal Offense for Not Registering LLC in Cleveland, OH

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

Ordinance in Cleveland makes it a first degree misdemeanor to buy property in an LLC without registering the LLC to do business in Ohio. Know of an LLC that just got convicted on two counts. $500 fine for each count, required disclosure of 1065, and "inactive community control" for 2 years. Community organizer showed up and LLC's need to report to him on properties. And they are "in the system" and "being watched". Oh yeah, and about ten grand in attorneys' fees.

First, this particular ordinance is absurd.  Typical NE Ohio socialism/fascism/Mandarin bureaucratic overkill.  One of many idiotic local ordinances.  Not a good place to do business.

But.

States are understandably not happy when people ask for the protection of the law (asset protection) but fail to follow it (register in state for a modest fee).  OH normally starts with a fine of $10k for such "deceptive business practices".  CA does not allow such an entity standing in court.  All understandable.

I'd think twice before using an unregistered out-of-state entity to "save money" on registration.  Better yet, use an in-state entity.

I believe this is the part where the Asset Protection Salesmen tell me how using trusts will magically solve the problem.  

Good luck with that.

Bottom line:  If you want the protection of the law, follow the law.

Post: Pass-Thru Deduction, Landlords, New Regs

John HyrePosted
  • Accountant / Attorney
  • San Juan, PR
  • Posts 67
  • Votes 171

So what is a modified gross lease?  

If it still boils down to NNN lease just via different language, then the IRS will look at the substance of the transaction and rule that NNN is NNN no matter what you call it. On the other hand, if one moves away from NNN and the new lease resembles the more standard arrangement where the landlord is much more active (even via its managers), then they might be on to something.