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All Forum Posts by: Joe Fish

Joe Fish has started 4 posts and replied 20 times.

Post: Property management subsidiary?

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

Can a property management company be established as a subsidiary to a brokerage? For example, if I have an LLC for my own property management company and would like to work under a brokerage is there any reason my LLC couldn't be set up as a subsidiary under the brokerage and then break off in a few years.

I will soon be a licensed broker, but need to work under an employing broker for two years per Colorado law. I’d ideally like to keep the property management financials and operations completely separate from the employing broker during that period. Is this common practice or does it at least seem possible?


Thanks for your insights!

Post: Construction Management Fee Question

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Greg Kasmer:

Michelle - My property management companies offers oversight of a larger project/renovation for 10%. I'm ok with that as long as they "own" securing the subcontractors are regularly on-site and provide good communication back to me. Good Luck!

 @Greg Kasmer - is this percentage arrangement detailed in your property management agreement? On a related note, is it clear what would constitute a project/renovation vs. routine maintenance and is that spelled out in your agreement? Thanks!

Post: Best practices for property management fees

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

For the property managers in the audience... when setting up a property management agreement, what would you consider to be the best way to handle fees that aren't covered in the monthly management fee?

The way I see it is that the monthly fee should cover coordinating routine maintenance (HVAC tuneup or minor maintenance, leaky faucets and drains, sprinklers, minor pest control, etc.), but larger ticket items that may require multiple bids, permits, or otherwise could have reasonably been prevented should be handled separately and charged to the owner. Otherwise, older properties and those with a lot of deferred maintenance will require a lot of attention from a property manager that isn't compensated. 

My question is how do property managers structure their agreements to account for the different types of maintenance that come up. It seems like there's a lot of grey area here. Similarly, do you set an hourly rate for light maintenance performed by the PM? Thanks for insights!

@Becca F. - if I were in your shoes, I would try to stick it out with the Indy properties for a little while longer. Losing money in the first year should be expected, but hopefully after the investments you’ve already made, the Class C property will start to cash flow or at least break even, and you might see some appreciation as interest rates fall a bit over the next year. Maybe consider selling then if you really want to get out. There’s nothing wrong with that.

The Class A will probably continue to appreciate and it sounds like you may not have much equity anyway so there’s no point in selling from a financial standpoint. Investing in index funds also isn’t a guaranteed return and not a quick path to retire early unless you have a lot of capital to invest. 

Post: Corporate Housing By Owner

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

Bumping this up for any recent feedback on CHBO. 

@Becca F. - sorry to hear of your challenges & frustrations with managing & growing your portfolio. A lot of great points have already been raised in this thread. As someone in a similar position (trying to eventually leave W2, starting with a few properties, family responsibilities, etc.), a few things jump out to me… 

- as you’ve alluded to the significant stress of owning real estate, it’s worth reiterating that there are definitely other paths to achieving financial freedom. On a related note, it seems likely that we are entering a period where RE returns are less of a sure thing and may be comparable to returns from other investments (despite the added headaches). No one really knows, but it seems like we’re in for a period of stagnation or slow/moderate growth in the RE market broadly. 

- it may be helpful to step back and assess where you are in the process. Chad Carson’s book, the Small and Mighty RE Investor, talks about the stages a RE investor moves through. Paula Pant also has a good perspective on the topic and touches on it occasionally in her podcast, Afford Anything. The bottom line is that you should have a different strategy depending whether you’re in the growth stage, stabilizing, retiring, etc. It sounds like you’re in the growth stage, but getting clear about what that means could be helpful, including establishing metrics that align with your goals. The challenge that I have (being in the growth stage) is that I need the cash flow, but I also want appreciation. This combo is difficult to find in the current economic climate, but I think it’s important to be conservative here and only pursue deals that move me in both of these directions, to the extent possible.

- Do you have a clear sense for how to evaluate the performance of your portfolio against your goals? e.g., how does each individual property contribute to your goal of retiring early? To what extent does each property support or impede that goal? Are there opportunities to optimize your portfolio to better support your goals (selling existing properties, value adds, etc.)?

- The current reality is that investing in RE may require a couple years of negative cash flow before things start to make sense on paper. This should be expected and accounted for in underwriting. Similarly, I would expect any new purchase to require some level of capital expenses (though hopefully not due to theft!). 

- If at all possible, you really should be raising rent on an annual basis, at least keeping up with inflation & tax increases (despite what your PM may advise). The idea that you should reward good tenants by keeping the rent at the current level is outdated IMO and leads to weird landlord/tenant dynamics. While a turnover and vacancy are definitely a hassle for a property owner, they’re also a major hassle for tenants. There’s a middle ground for reasonable rent increases. 

- Having run the numbers on several Class C properties in the Midwest (and as someone who grew up in Indiana, but is not currently investing there), I find the negligible cash flow under current conditions is not worth the risk (eviction, major capex, vacancy, etc.). Further, does rent or property value appreciation keep up with inflation? If cash flow and appreciation are both marginal, it’s hard to see where the value is. I’m sure some people are making it work, but as an outsider, I’m not sure it’s easy to put the pieces together. 

- Do you actually need a property manager for your OOS investment? I get the comfort aspect, but are they bringing the value that offsets their cost, given the availability of tools to enable remote property management? 

- Have you calculated your return on equity for each of your properties? I feel like this is an underutilized metric for RE investors and is the best way to compare performance of RE assets vs. other potential investments. 

- To your broader question about investing in RE vs. other strategies, while investing in index funds is easy, returns there are not guaranteed and are not under your control. You could suffer double digit losses and find yourself questioning that strategy in the same way that you question RE. I think the answer is always diversification, but there's no magic formula for what is the correct balance. Comparing your real estate return on equity (not CoC return) vs. historical stock market returns would be a great start. Personally, I aim for > 15% return on equity from real estate, which exceeds long-term stock market returns by a healthy margin, but does require active portfolio management (mainly by not keeping too much equity in a given property). If return on equity approaches typical stock market returns, I would lean toward investing in the stock market, as there is less effort involved (though not necessarily less risk).

Hope this helps! 

Post: Anyone investing in Co-living?

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

Does anyone know if this strategy (rent by the room) is typically considered ‘multi-family' for zoning purposes? I have a SFR in a HCOL area that could be a good candidate, but zoning regs prohibit multi family. My interpretation is that I couldn't legally convert it to have separate entrances, but maybe with everyone sharing the space it would be okay. Any experiences with this issue would be appreciated!

I can't answer this question, but wanted to mention Avery Carl covers this and similar STR property transfer issues in her book on Short Term rentals. Might be worth getting ahold of a copy. Sounds like it can get pretty messy.

Post: What is the point of a home equity loan?

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

A couple potential benefits of a HELOC include lower closing costs, interest only payments, ability to reduce payments by paying down, and promotional rates. Rates will likely be higher than a mortgage, but vary over time based on federal funds rate so could come down. I'm not sure about a home equity loan, but these don't seem very common in my experience.

Post: What is the point of a home equity loan?

Joe FishPosted
  • Arvada, CO
  • Posts 21
  • Votes 12

A couple potential benefits of a HELOC include lower closing costs, interest only payments, ability to reduce payments by paying down, and promotional rates. Rates will likely be higher than a mortgage, but vary over time based on federal funds rate so could come down. I'm not sure about a home equity loan, but these don't seem very common in my experience.