And let me just say that the true power of these forums is the people. I was unmotivated when I posted this and was blaming it on the site, but it was how I was interacting with the site, not the site. The site hasn't changed, literally not at all.
The people, my friends here, people I know, help change the perspective by doing what they have done for years, just posting and responding with words of wisdom and a 20,000 foot view. So thanks to the people that helped me adjust my mindset in literally one day of interacting on here.
I went into my Followed Forums and removed Starting Out and Wholesaling from that preference. That alone will help me not read what I don't want to read.
I can appreciate that. I think we all get fatigued from time to time, and I think it's worse when things are "slow" because of economics or demographics or whatever. I've lost interest in some of the forums I used to participate in just because my own focus has changed. At the same time I find myself participating in other forums I used to ignore, like the taxes and short term rentals forums, because those have become bigger focus areas (and pain points!) for me.
One thing I think we could use here is a primer for new members on forum etiquette. I used to try to help answer a lot of questions from new members but get tired of the rudeness and ghosting, and so I generally wait to see if the poster is still engaged before I participate. Perhaps we need potential forum users to take a basic etiquette quiz before they can post!
I know there are sites that prohibit posting until you've been a member for a certain amount of time, or read a certain number of posts, etc. That may not make for instant potential sales customers but it would improve the quality of the people in the forums.
They have a first post restriction, but they have VAs monitoring that before it gets to moderators first and they just let everything through. I would say about 25 percent of first posts are spam.
I have a few posts in the Starting Out forum about how to do the forums, but like @Nathan Gesner said, it's not telling them how to open an LLC so it's not as interesting to them. P.S. - I had to tag Nathan there six times because I kept mistyping a letter (they need to update this)
You should have seen how hard it was to tag him back when he was just the gangsta Nathan G. 🤣
Yes, the first post restriction is there but it doesn't do a whole lot. I've probably caught maybe 5% of the spammers on the first post. Better spammers - the ones that aren't trying to sell goulash in Cambodia - will ask some type of question first before responding with their own products. I'm in favor of a higher bar before posting but I think it's a minority position.
And let me just say that the true power of these forums is the people. I was unmotivated when I posted this and was blaming it on the site, but it was how I was interacting with the site, not the site. The site hasn't changed, literally not at all.
The people, my friends here, people I know, help change the perspective by doing what they have done for years, just posting and responding with words of wisdom and a 20,000 foot view. So thanks to the people that helped me adjust my mindset in literally one day of interacting on here.
I went into my Followed Forums and removed Starting Out and Wholesaling from that preference. That alone will help me not read what I don't want to read.
I can appreciate that. I think we all get fatigued from time to time, and I think it's worse when things are "slow" because of economics or demographics or whatever. I've lost interest in some of the forums I used to participate in just because my own focus has changed. At the same time I find myself participating in other forums I used to ignore, like the taxes and short term rentals forums, because those have become bigger focus areas (and pain points!) for me.
One thing I think we could use here is a primer for new members on forum etiquette. I used to try to help answer a lot of questions from new members but get tired of the rudeness and ghosting, and so I generally wait to see if the poster is still engaged before I participate. Perhaps we need potential forum users to take a basic etiquette quiz before they can post!
I know there are sites that prohibit posting until you've been a member for a certain amount of time, or read a certain number of posts, etc. That may not make for instant potential sales customers but it would improve the quality of the people in the forums.
"PS before you dismiss this as liberal, communist, socialist talk."
Dismissed, actually more like Marxism!
I'd like to see back up of some of your assertions, Not hearsay, Not the Liberal Press.
i.e. Called my main guy this spring for some work. He showed with a young guy, We worked our butts off for 3 days. I picked up lunch, drinks etc. I went to pay them, couple of days work I'll pay with a check (1099) and cash it for them.
Hey Tony, I've got all O's info what's yours?
"Just Tony." Ok, some ID?
"No necessito." Whaaa, lets see some papers!
"No necessito!" Whaaa, empty your pockets!
"See, Nada, only new phone."
How do you buy anything or stay somewhere?
In very broken English:
"No necessito, US has free food! EBT! Section 8, nice housing! good medical at emergency! new clothes! etc."
:-0
Hey O, is this true? What's going on? You've been calling me a lot for work, and I've been referring you. What's up with this?
"Mike, 15 years ago I arrived in Mass, I was the only Guatemalan in Mass. Good people gave me work, I learned more skill, more money, worked hard! Now, recently, there are probably 1000 more Guatemalans like Tony, all undercutting each other!! I can do a roof for $300/Sq, they underbid me down like $99/Sq."
Yes, I've seen them, **** work and they're falling off roofs, not safe. I don't care if they're free, I don't need that!
"Mike, that's unusual!"
I could go on.
1. I see it as more like 50 million Undocumented (Illegally entered the USA) aliens.
2. I'm optimistic bad ones will be deported.
3. I'd like to see folks that are chosen to remain are vetted and documented.
Soooo Don't bother arguing with me about what I see and know. Actual experience I'll listen to.
@Jay Hinrichs I agree with your wife on the make up of subs! I'm seeing the same, Thanks
That mirrors my experience too - our Hispanic contractors know exactly what the market rates are and they may be a touch below but not considerable - what you are getting these days is a faster, tighter job, not huge cost savings.
What we're getting here in CA is unpermitted, non warranties work. While licensed contractors pay payroll taxes, workers comp and a litany of other financial burdens.
perspective is everything.
Fair point, doesn't make it right though. It's also why we see customers get burned.
Illegal or not, unlicensed contractors here in CA undermine the industry. We can't compete with people not paying payroll taxes,comp, pioneer etc.
I mentioned to Bruce on another post that there are barely 210k active licenses left here. What happens when we cant pay our overhead because of the underground economy?
Why even have licenses?, maybe REA and brokers shouldn't have licenses?
There's another issue with licensing - there's just not enough licensed competent contractors in a lot of these markets. In my market if you tried to wait and use licensed guys for everything you'd never get anything done. Also, unlicensed doesn't mean illegal as far as citizenship. I've had plenty of unlicensed white guys work for me I'm sure.
It's the same as it always has been. At every point in history of the 15+ years of the site I've noticed the old timers complaining that the site is the worst it's ever been.
Obviously that feeling seems to extend to all people in all facets of life everywhere. The country is the worst it's ever been. My city is the worst it's ever been. Movies are the worst it's ever been. People always long for the days of yesteryear and idolize the past.
My thoughts as well. Things change and we get older and generally think the new stuff sucks. And the longer you are here, the more you've heard every question and seen every type of spam. I think the key is you have to just always try to look at it with fresh eyes and consider that others are in different points of their trajectory.
Beyond that it's not in my nature to complain; I just like to identify problems and solve them, and if I can't solve them then either accept them or move to greener pastures.
"PS before you dismiss this as liberal, communist, socialist talk."
Dismissed, actually more like Marxism!
I'd like to see back up of some of your assertions, Not hearsay, Not the Liberal Press.
i.e. Called my main guy this spring for some work. He showed with a young guy, We worked our butts off for 3 days. I picked up lunch, drinks etc. I went to pay them, couple of days work I'll pay with a check (1099) and cash it for them.
Hey Tony, I've got all O's info what's yours?
"Just Tony." Ok, some ID?
"No necessito." Whaaa, lets see some papers!
"No necessito!" Whaaa, empty your pockets!
"See, Nada, only new phone."
How do you buy anything or stay somewhere?
In very broken English:
"No necessito, US has free food! EBT! Section 8, nice housing! good medical at emergency! new clothes! etc."
:-0
Hey O, is this true? What's going on? You've been calling me a lot for work, and I've been referring you. What's up with this?
"Mike, 15 years ago I arrived in Mass, I was the only Guatemalan in Mass. Good people gave me work, I learned more skill, more money, worked hard! Now, recently, there are probably 1000 more Guatemalans like Tony, all undercutting each other!! I can do a roof for $300/Sq, they underbid me down like $99/Sq."
Yes, I've seen them, **** work and they're falling off roofs, not safe. I don't care if they're free, I don't need that!
"Mike, that's unusual!"
I could go on.
1. I see it as more like 50 million Undocumented (Illegally entered the USA) aliens.
2. I'm optimistic bad ones will be deported.
3. I'd like to see folks that are chosen to remain are vetted and documented.
Soooo Don't bother arguing with me about what I see and know. Actual experience I'll listen to.
@Jay Hinrichs I agree with your wife on the make up of subs! I'm seeing the same, Thanks
That mirrors my experience too - our Hispanic contractors know exactly what the market rates are and they may be a touch below but not considerable - what you are getting these days is a faster, tighter job, not huge cost savings.
@Devin James Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I wonder if this post is about looking for validation trying to justify not giving it your all for an underlying fear of not succeeding. I see this fear a lot. “I don’t want to try because I don’t want to fail.” But then masking the fear with, a moral justification of I don’t want to dedicate what is requires to _______ (fill in the blank) because it is too much of a sacrifice of time away from my family. I think it’s hogwash. Playing small won’t serve you or your family. Raising up to your full potential as a father, husband, and provider will serve those around you
Jim Rohn says it this way when he asks the question, “How tall does a tree grow?” And then he answers his own question, “As tall as it possibly can.”
In scripture the same concept is taught with the parable of the talents. One was given 1 talent, another 2, and the last was given 5. At the end of the parable each one presented what they did with the talent. The one that got 5 doubled it. The one who got 2 doubled it as well. But the one who got 1 talent hid it away because of fear of failure. He was the only one who was not a good and faithful steward. It wasn’t how much they made, it was whether or not they were good stewards over what they got. They multiplied what they received. They didn’t justify an underperformance out of fear.
So rather than looking for validation for underperforming and hiding behind the moral justification of not wanting to sacrifice the time with family that it takes to achieve _______ (whatever thing), the better question is, how can I reach my full potential as a provider while at the same time figuring out a way to meet my full potential as a husband and father and all other roles in my life. That is the burden of a man. How do I rise to my highest and best potential in every role of my life without giving into the temptation of justifying underperformance in any area of my life.
For perspective, let me share with you a real regret. I fit into what @Nathan Gesner defined as the wealthy. I wouldn’t yet fit into the ultra wealthy category. During the COVID lockdowns, I still worked. My wealth was tied up in assets and I wasn’t at a place financially to not work. So I missed out on taking a year off with my wife and kids and just fully enjoying the time we could experience together.
Similarly, My mother-in-law went to live in assisted living homes rather than us having a guest house in the backyard of our current home where we could have hired a nurse full time to be here with her to take care of her at our home. The same thing is happening with my own mother now. I highly regret not being further ahead of where I am currently financially to where I could provide more comfort to those I care about during their vulnerable times in their life.
You see, wealth is not just about you. Wealth is about those you care about. It’s more about duty than desire.
Please don’t take offense to anything I have said. What was described may not fit your situation at all. If it does, then it may be worth reflecting upon.
I judge no man, and I find a lot of truth in Devin's original post.
Anyone who thinks they become ultra-wealthy - however that is defined - without sacrificing anything else is delusional. The fact of the matter, as @Jay Hinrichs said, is that it *is* an either or proposition at least in the season of growth. That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done or that it's not worth it in the long term. I know I had to sacrifice a lot of things when I was just trying to grow this business. Certainly there was some end goal, but let's say I would have died while doing all that sacrifice - would it have been worth it? Well, of course it was a chance I had to take for the benefit of myself & my family, and it panned out - but part of panning out is knowing when is "enough", as Vicky Robin puts it.
Achieving excellence in anything generally requires an extreme amount of dedication and time commitment, time that could have been spent doing a thousand other things. I don't say it is or isn't worth it - only each of us can make that decision - but I criticize no one for asking the question regarding enough, or even recognizing their lack of desire to spend an inordinate amount of effort to obtain what they consider marginal gains.
If a person wants to chase wealth for wealth's sake, that's fine with me. No one should feel morally superior because they do so. There are choices at every turn that form the story. Do you buy a Toyota or a Tesla? Do you buy a 2k sf home or a 4k sf home? If your goal is financial security for your family, how do those things further or impede those goals?
Finally, and this is going to sound zen-ish, but there's also value in doing nothing. Solving the great mysteries of life, for all of us, generally requires time and bandwidth, resources unavailable if you're spending all your down time looking for the next off-market deal.
Rental homes - especially paid for ones - are a good retirement supplement, or even plan if you have enough of them to offset vacancies & expenses. Don't kid yourself regarding flips - if you are doing flips, you are not retired. Flipping houses is a lot of work. It's nothing like fancy pants hanging around kitchen stores picking out just the right cabinet door and handle pulls. It's putting out lots of fires, managing finances like a hawk, keeping projects on time, in line and on budget, marketing the property & getting it through closing, and *then* doing it all over again - and that's if you're not doing any of the work yourself.
NO POLITICS. Policy discussions only no personalities. You should be able to discuss an official or party's policies virtually without mentioning the person or party, or only as an ancillary note. Anything else is going to devolve pretty fast into the mud. Leave people out of your posts.
There are 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. If even just a quarter of them are removed, don't you think it would greatly affect housing markets? That'd be 2-3 million people not needing housing in the US any longer.
The country has massive debts and deficits. Our federal government, operationally does not function very effectively and certainly not efficiently. The cost to remove just one illegal will be in the thousands and way the government operates probably 100's of thousands of dollars. I don't see any possible way to accomplish this goal. The last Trump administration was much more show and bluster than it was effective at implementing policy. They successful cut taxes and loosened IRS enforcement. That was accomplished with the stroke of a pen. They unleashed pandemic handouts and loan programs that greased the economy (this was not well thought out, contributed to the inflationary environment we are still suffering from and PPP and ERP loans were flooded with fraudulent loans and benefits)
These programs leveraged existing corporate infrastructure (banks and the government had little or no operational involvement). The big difference here is some federal state or local agencies will have to be redeployed to take on this task creating a lack of services in the areas they were already operating. This will create more costs. Apprehended illegals will still be afforded due process (I presume since this is constitutionally protected for everyone in the United States). Anything requiring court or judicial decisioning is extremely slow. So we will be housing feeding and detaining millions of people for well beyond the Trump presidency. I suspect this is mostly campaign rhetoric that was popular with the current anti immigrant xenophobia that grew out of the pandemic both here and internationally and won the election, but the governments ability to achieve any real change in the population of illegals in this country would be very out of character. There will be some showy roundup of few immigrants (most likely only in Blue State, because every act of both parties right now is to be punitive to the citizens of the states that oppose the current administration), they will go after people with removal orders already in place, have a couple of press conferences and go back to improving their own personal economic situations. I hope I am wrong, but the above scenario more closely fits how the government operated in Trump first 4 years.
PS before you dismiss this as liberal, communist, socialist talk. I am not a democrat, just a realist. I often think we forgot we the voters are responsible for all of this. We elected Trump the first time, elected Biden to relieve ourselves of the chaos of his first presidency and now reelected him because he promised he would lower the cost of eggs by pumping more oil. The binary choice was not a good one, but I wouldn't anticipate some remarkable improvement of fiscal responsibility or operational efficiency in this second act.
Well, I'm not ultra wealthy - I'm not even sure if I fit the definition of wealthy - but I guess I'll chime in anyway. As someone who grew up ridiculously poor, I have more wealth than I probably ever figured on having. I worked a W2 my whole life, invested in myself and RE on the side. I never made more than $100k in a year working until my last year of employment, and still managed to retire at 50 with a lifetime pension from a combination of military and public service. I own all my toys, never seriously worry about money (I suspect everyone with any money always at least pays attention to it), spend my winters in Florida and rarely work in any sense (I do some consulting and side teaching) more than 10 hours a week. I take my dog to see his friends at the dog park every morning and usually take an hour or two nap in the afternoon most days. Some days I am literally baffled at how I spent an entire day doing nothing.
To me, that feels pretty wealthy. I guess I could work harder and get more money, but what for?