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All Forum Posts by: Immanuel Sibero

Immanuel Sibero has started 1 posts and replied 407 times.

Post: Move on it, or just move on?

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Graham Nash

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges here. You calculated your cap rate using the "expenses = 50% of rent" rule but you calculated COC using actual monthly expenses which by my calculation are $6,950, which equates to about 36% of rent (i.e. 6,950/19,400). So you are either understating your cap rate or overstating your COC or both.

If you were to apply consistent rule to the expenses in calculating COC and Cap Rate, I think you would see your cap rate and COC will fall into place as expected.

Immanuel

Post: CAP Rates & Replacement Reserves

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Account Closed

I would do a search "loopnet" on BP. You would find great information. My take is once in a blue moon there may be good deals there but a lot of the deals on the site are still there for a reason. They're overpriced and many have passed on them. No telling how they calculate crap rates, excuse me... cap rates. :-)

I find loopnet listings educational though, as they presented the information about the deals in a professional way.

Immanuel

Post: Cash on Cash Return Compared to Cert. of Deposits

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Llewelyn A.

Good Dicussion.

I really don't see a difference in RoR and IRR as you have presented them. IRR is a great metric to evaluate competing investment opportunities. IRR does this by examining the effect of time on the value of cash outlay so timing is everything. In an inflationary environment, the quicker you receive cash the more valuable it is. The more valuable it is the higher the IRR.

I agree with you that CoCR is not a viable metric because it's calculated year by year therefore ignores the time value of money. As shown by your analysis, the effect of time on the cashflow has impaired the IRR/Rate or Return by 3.58% (i.e. 10.01% - 6.43%). Pretty significant!!

Another illustration of the effect of time on cashflow is with respect to the IRR of 6.43% vs IRR of 9.13% that you calculated above. As you have stated, the correct one is the IRR of 6.43%. The "normal" IRR of 9.13% is higher because the timing of the cash outlay has been altered. By listing all the annual cashflow of $3,004 on Column V, the IRR formula assumes that those $3,004 payments are actually made which is contrary to your assumption that no cash payments are made until year 10. In both cases the total cash received is the same, $55,967, but the IRR formula recognizes that it is MORE valuable to receive $55,967 by getting $3,004 every year and $28,930 in year 10 THAN to receive a lump sum of $55,967 all in year 10. It is more valuable because part of the $55,967 is received quicker. The quicker you get it the higher the value, the higher the value the higher the IRR (again assuming inflationary environment).

Also, there are tax implications at the investor level that should be considered. In some scenarios, the implications are insignificant but if you're a 1-percenter they are almost always significant... I'm not a 1-percenter... I only wish :-) Depending on who is in the White House, it's entirely possible the tax implications could tip the scale of IRRs enough to favor one class of investments over another. (i.e. the impact on IRR of the various tax treatment of dividends, capital gain, rental income, preferance deductions, etc).

Changing direction a little bit here... we have covered much about IRR or Rate of Return, and CoCr, but not so much about the other side of the coin which is "Risk", so the rest of my post invites you to go into the subject of Risk. There is a couple of mentions of Risk in this post but not nearly enough coverage given the importance of Risk analysis in selecting an investment opportunity. In fact I think Risk analysis is just as important as Return calculation. They are two sides of the same coin. Part of the reason risk is not talked about as much as Return is because, unlike Return, Risk is hard to quantify and is subjective to each investor.

Both Risk and Return form a framework which I use to make investment decisions. This framework is really just a simple Risk vs Return analysis. Investing in general is like a game, the object of which is to deploy capital into the most profitable investment opportunity. The problem is, capital is a scarce resource. Anytime you deal with scarce resources you are confronted with opportunity costs. So somehow you must come up with an effective way to determine which investment opportunity is the best to deploy your scarce capital into. Risk/Return analysis framework helps you determine the optimal balance of Risk vs Return across various investment opportunities. An optimal balance of Risk vs Return in turn minimizes opportunity costs.

When it comes to risk, there are a few concepts I think about:

INVESTMENT Risk Profile - this is the generally accepted level of risk associated with a certain group/class of investments determined by the markets. Stocks are usually riskier than mutual funds, options are usually riskier than stocks, some real estate investments are riskier than stocks or mutual funds, etc.

INVESTOR Risk Tolerance - this is a subjective, personal posture that an investor takes with respect to the different group/class of investments. Some investors feel more comfortable investing in stocks than in real estate because of prior experience of good results. Some investors got bit hard during the 2007 crash and swore off of stocks no matter how lucrative an opportunity appears to be.

INVESTOR Required Rate of Return - this is the minimum rate of return (i.e. IRR or Yield, etc) that I would accept of a particular investment class before I would invest. This Required Rate of Return can be different for a particular investment or class of investments depending on the Risk Profile of the investment and my personal Risk Tolerance.

For example, using the framework above, based on how comfortable I feel investing in the different classes of investments, and my understanding of the level of risks associated with the different classes of investments, I might decide on the following Required Rate of Returns for the various different class of investments:

- 5% Required Rate of Return for Mutual Funds

- 8% Required Rate of Return for Stocks

- 10% Required Rate of Return (i.e. IRR) for Real Estate

Consider the two scenarios below of how Risk comes into play in selecting an investment opportunity within the Risk/Return framework:

- Let's say I have an opportunity to invest in a stock with expected return of 7.5% (i.e. after researching the stock), and another opportunity in an Single Family rental with 11% CoCR, in this case I would likely invest in the Single Family rental. This is because the Rate of Return of the Single Family is higher than my Required Rate of Return. Similarly, I would not invest in the stock investment opportunity because its Rate of Return is lower than my Required Rate of Return.

- Real Estate investors may further break down real estate investment class. For example, 20% Required Rate of Return for an SFR in a high cap rate area (i.e. higher crime, etc) and 6% Required Rate of Return for a fourplex in a low cap rate area with higher income, professional tenants. In this case, if I was offered an SFR with 19% CoC and a fourplex with 7% CoC, I would invest in the fourplex, despite the much lower Rate of Return. This is because the fourplex return of 7% is higher than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments. By the same logic, although the SFR return of 19% is much higher than the fourplex return of 7%, I would pass on it because the SFR return is lower than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments.

This has been a rather long post but it was my intention to give "Risk" equal air time... :-)

BTW if you are using Excel, quite a while back I switched from IRR to XIRR. XIRR does everything IRR does and more... much more. Besides it's more accurate too.

Comments welcome....Immanuel

Post: CAP Rates & Replacement Reserves

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Account Closed

If you were to calculate the cap rate of one particular property only, I could see the dilemma of "to include" or "not to include" Replacement Reserves in NOI. However, cap rate is a metric normally used in comparative analysis among several properties. I would think consistency in defining cap rate and NOI across the different properties being compared is more important than which variation is correct.

The article you pointed out actually addresses your questions:

- NOI should be defined consistently among the properties being compared. Any item below the line on one property should also be below the line on all the other properties being compared... and vice versa.

- There are variations in the way people define NOI when calculating cap rates but the article makes no determination as to which variation is correct or incorrect.... probably because it really doesn't matter. Or does it?

Immanuel

Post: How does the Cap Rate Work

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Ryan E.

Agreed... I find myself going to Biggerpockets less often these days (likely to drop down to Plus from PRO). Don't get me wrong, there are many experts on BP with deep knowledge and experience in multitude of facets in RE, but you can also find them elsewhere off or on the net. When it comes to Cap Rates though... BP was it for me (courtesy of Bob Bowling of course).

I have learned enough from Bob to have a solid grasp of Cap Rates, also enough to be amazed at how much misconceptions, misuse, and abuse of Cap Rates are still out there. Equally amazed at clueless posters further perpetuating those misconceptions, misuse, and abuse. No wonder Bob used to get cranky within a couple of posts...

Post: Weird cap rate observation...

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

If you assumed that cap rate is somehow a measure of performance or profitability of a property (i.e. the higher the cap rate the more profitable the property is) then yes, it would seem weird, anomalous, backwards for cap rate to go down when income stays the same and value goes up. You would think cap rate would also go up (i.e. the higher the cap rate, the better the property). There are many posts here on BP that reflect this line of thinking such as:

- "my minimum cap rate is 10%, I wouldn't even look at a property with cap rate below 10%"

- "I'm going to buy this property, do some value add, increase the cap rate, and sell it for a profit"

This is a misconception because cap rate is NOT necessarily a measure of profitability, it is a measure of desirability of the property. The one thing to note is that cap rate measures desirability in an inverse fashion (i.e. the lower the cap rate the more desirable the property is).

We can think of cap rates as simply exchange rates (i.e. as in foreign currencies). Cap rates simply tell you how many dollars worth of Value you would fetch for each dollar of NOI. They are just conversion rates! The don't tell you much else, they certainly don't tell you whether the NOI has been generated by a highly profitable or barely profitable properties.

So, when value goes up while income stays the same, it is likely that the area has become more desirable for one reason or another.... it expected that cap rates go down in this case (i.e. they reflect the higher desirability of the property).

Immanuel

Post: Canadian investors

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@David C.

Agreed, with cap rate of 5 and stabilized there's not much upside.

I read through the thread you referred to, wow... great stuff! Didnt realize you're part of a group that's crushing it out on the west coast :-) Good to meet you.

I'm new in RE and am fascinated by it. I'm in Dallas, TX so it's a little different out here. But I love to learn from the likes of you and @minh le and the rest. If my journey brings me to the west coast, I'll be sure to give you a shout :-)

All the best,

Immanuel

Post: Canadian investors

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@David C.

Markets with low cap rates can still be profitable. Using your numbers (let's say the market cap rate is 3%), by increasing 200 rent per unit per month, you have increased NOI by 36,000 annually (i.e 200x15x12). That increase equates to a whopping $1,200,000 increase in value of the property (i.e. 36,000 / 3%). So how do you justify paying 2.7M for this property? By selling it for 3.9M in 2 or 3 years. I would be happy with that.

Yes it is expensive getting into markets with low cap rates, but it can be very profitable getting out. You get more bangs for your value-add bucks.

Immanuel

Post: General Cap Rate in SoCal Market

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Michael Choi

I'm in Texas. I have new neighbors from CA. Recently, I also notice more earthquakes in TX. Things must be getting really bad in CA even the earthquakes are moving out of state... lol

Kidding aside, I'm just amazed at the real estate investment landscape in CA. Different world for sure!

All the best,

Immanuel

Post: Valuing a 4-plex im considering purchasing

Immanuel SiberoPosted
  • Carrollton, TX
  • Posts 415
  • Votes 371

@Miles Stanley

I can add to this that, as you pointed out earlier, it's important to understand the underlying concepts behind these metrics, because then you would be able to tell when others have misused/abused them. You should do a search on "cap rate" right here on Biggerpockets, you would see the gross misconceptions many investors have surrounding it.

Best of luck to you,

Immanuel