Cash on Cash Return Compared to Cert. of Deposits

Cash on Cash Return Compared to Cert. of Deposits

Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes

While I have been a RE Investor for 2 Decades, I've seen this metric quite often. The Cash on Cash Return (CoCR) seemed to be part of a lot of REI's decision making criteria.

This Post will be a very long one but one filled with Calculations. Any errors, please let me know and if you are willing to read and analyze it all, I really respect that! I'm a geek at these things and I get carried away.

To fully understand it, I wanted to start this discussion and present various Calculations, but project them out to 10 years. That way the General BP community can help me sort out how this Metric is used and whether there are any drawbacks. One of the issues I have with the CoCR is that it's a calculation based only on the 1st year ownership. I hope to expand on this.

I normally use a Certificate of Deposit (CD) as a comparison tool because the Calculation is very easy AND anyone can Invest in a CD. To start it out, I wanted to show this Calculation for someone who will put $30k into a CD for a holding period of 10 years.

Today's Rate as of 12/7/2016, you will see 10 Year CDs are around 1%.

The way this a CD works is that you would deposit your money in to the CD, let it sit there for 10 years, then your money will compound by reinvesting the Interest along with your principal over a 10 year basis. So you make Interest on your Interest!

The calculation for a 10 Year CD at 1% Fixed Annual Interest Rate looks like this:

Now that we have the calculation referenced in terms of today's safe investment by using a CD (yes, we can use Treasury Bonds, but the average person probably doesn't even know how to do that), we can benchmark possible Investments using BOTH in order to get the equivalence.

As a Stock Example, let's say you were to buy a bunch of stocks and you Invested $30k total for all the stock you purchased. If after 10 years the Stocks you purchased is worth $40k and you sold it for that, we can build a CD EQUIVALENT.

Here is the EQUIVALENT CD Calcs for the Stock Investment example:

You can see that the Equivalent CD Rate of that Stock Investment is actually 2.92%.... which is much better than the 1% in the previous Example for the straight CD.

So, why do we need this kind of Comparison? Because it should not matter WHAT you invest into (Stocks, CDs, Real Estate, Business, etc.) AND How much you have INVESTED. What Matters is what we call the RATE of RETURN or RoR which is what is being measured here.

So, let's take an other example, this time with a Real Estate Investment. Let's say that you invested $50k in a DUPLEX, you did not receive ANY cashflow but were completely EVEN, neither receiving Cashflow or paying out of pocket above the rents for any repairs or expenses during your 10 years holding period. However, after you sold the property, you received $65k in Cash from the Sales Proceeds.

The Calculations will look like this: 

So, you will notice that the CD Investment gives you a profit of $3,139, the Stock Investment gives you a profit of $10k and the RE Investment a profit of $15k.

HOWEVER, the RoR are different. The CD is a 1% RoR, the Stock is a 2.92% RoR and the RE is a 2.66% RoR.

Which is better? Clearly the Stock investment because the RoR is the higher of all 3. The fact that the REI had a $15k profit versus a $10k profit for the Stock Investment does not make the REI a better investment. All you had to do was to bring up your initial investment in the Stock Investment and you would get a higher profit than the $10k. It will be higher than the $15k if you had invested the $50k in the Stock Example versus only $30k.

Moving on to the Cash on Cash Return (CoCR).... This is a more detailed example so we can look at the calculations and translate it into the CD Comparison so we can make comparisons to all Types of Investments:

Now, there are certain assumptions that are being made. The most important assumption, is for the sake of Comparison to a CD, we need to assume that you do not take out the Cashflow for 10 years but rather keep all the money in the RE Investment's Bank Account. When you first started the Bank Account, you would have deposited the Investment of $30k. Then, after 10 years, you would have sold (or Pretended to sell for purposes of Calculations) in order to know how much money would have been left over. We call that the Sales Proceeds.

Other minor assumptions that are not discussed may not really affect the comparison in any significant way. But I'm open to suggestions.

Anyway, to boil the example above of an Investment of a 2 Family property, we need to create an Equivalent CD Calculation:

You will see in cell K2 that the equivalent of the CoCR example boils down to a 6.43% Return.

By setting up your spreadsheet this way, you can then do all sorts of calculations. Notice that I have an area for Appreciation and Cashflow Growth Rate, both set to zero so we assume none happened in 10 years.

One would say this is a very poor return of only 6.43% per year for 10 straight years.

The reality is that if you compare it to the LAST 10 Years of Treasury Bonds and CDs and probably most people's 401k's, that's probably very good!

In terms of the CoCR, it originally calculates 10.01%. I set up the example purposely so that I can show that if your Criteria is a CoCR of over 10%, this would qualify. HOWEVER, it's really no better than a 6.43% RoR, given the ZERO Appreciation and CF Growth Rate.

Now, let's answer a WHAT IF question... because this is exactly what EXCEL excels AT! The WHAT IF questions!

Let's say we want to make an assumption that the Overall CF will grow. We can hypothesize that rent will increases but only slightly above expenses over the 10 years. Let's say that we want to assume a 1% overall CF growth based on this.

We also think that while Appreciation Rates are around 5% nationally, we didn't invest for Appreciation, but we should get some lower than National Appreciation Rate, let's say only 3%. So, we assume 3% Appreciation and 1% CF Growth. Our spreadsheet example looks like this:

WOW!!! Now we are rocking and rolling!

The calculations are saying that this is the EQUIVALENT of investing in a CD where each and every year that CD returns 11.44% per YEAR for 10 straight Years!!

I personally think that you need to have a Metric that can compare to ANY kind of investing.... not JUST something that compares one REI to another REI.

I'm not sure how other Investors will view this, but I thought that I would put it out here and hopefully help those who are struggling to get a really good understanding of what some of us call FUTURE Value and PRO-FORMA calculations.

While these calculations are not the exact ones that are being used, I think this is a good introduction and can help give the Reader of this Post some understanding of how looking at the Future using projected calculations can help determine what is a good Investment, FOR YOU. Everyone has an idea of what they would like to make in a CD Equivalent. HOWEVER, and this is MOST Important when it comes to FUTURE Calculations... GARBAGE IN MEANS GARBAGE OUT. So I would always be CONSERVATIVE when it comes to making assumptions JUST IN CASE.

The other thing I wanted to give to the Readers of this post is that a proficiency of a Spreadsheet can help a great deal. Every kind of Business, especially financial businesses, RE, etc. use them extensively. The above are really basic future calculations but they demonstrate how you can set up WHAT IF analysis on your projected Investments. I do this for all my RE and Stock/Options trading. It's a worthwhile endeavor to add this to your skill set at a high level.

Anyway, this has been a rather long post. I hope I haven't bored anyone to death!

Thanks for reading.

Investor Llew

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Carrollton, TX · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 371 votes
9y

@Llewelyn A.

Good Dicussion.

I really don't see a difference in RoR and IRR as you have presented them. IRR is a great metric to evaluate competing investment opportunities. IRR does this by examining the effect of time on the value of cash outlay so timing is everything. In an inflationary environment, the quicker you receive cash the more valuable it is. The more valuable it is the higher the IRR.

I agree with you that CoCR is not a viable metric because it's calculated year by year therefore ignores the time value of money. As shown by your analysis, the effect of time on the cashflow has impaired the IRR/Rate or Return by 3.58% (i.e. 10.01% - 6.43%). Pretty significant!!

Another illustration of the effect of time on cashflow is with respect to the IRR of 6.43% vs IRR of 9.13% that you calculated above. As you have stated, the correct one is the IRR of 6.43%. The "normal" IRR of 9.13% is higher because the timing of the cash outlay has been altered. By listing all the annual cashflow of $3,004 on Column V, the IRR formula assumes that those $3,004 payments are actually made which is contrary to your assumption that no cash payments are made until year 10. In both cases the total cash received is the same, $55,967, but the IRR formula recognizes that it is MORE valuable to receive $55,967 by getting $3,004 every year and $28,930 in year 10 THAN to receive a lump sum of $55,967 all in year 10. It is more valuable because part of the $55,967 is received quicker. The quicker you get it the higher the value, the higher the value the higher the IRR (again assuming inflationary environment).

Also, there are tax implications at the investor level that should be considered. In some scenarios, the implications are insignificant but if you're a 1-percenter they are almost always significant... I'm not a 1-percenter... I only wish :-) Depending on who is in the White House, it's entirely possible the tax implications could tip the scale of IRRs enough to favor one class of investments over another. (i.e. the impact on IRR of the various tax treatment of dividends, capital gain, rental income, preferance deductions, etc).

Changing direction a little bit here... we have covered much about IRR or Rate of Return, and CoCr, but not so much about the other side of the coin which is "Risk", so the rest of my post invites you to go into the subject of Risk. There is a couple of mentions of Risk in this post but not nearly enough coverage given the importance of Risk analysis in selecting an investment opportunity. In fact I think Risk analysis is just as important as Return calculation. They are two sides of the same coin. Part of the reason risk is not talked about as much as Return is because, unlike Return, Risk is hard to quantify and is subjective to each investor.

Both Risk and Return form a framework which I use to make investment decisions. This framework is really just a simple Risk vs Return analysis. Investing in general is like a game, the object of which is to deploy capital into the most profitable investment opportunity. The problem is, capital is a scarce resource. Anytime you deal with scarce resources you are confronted with opportunity costs. So somehow you must come up with an effective way to determine which investment opportunity is the best to deploy your scarce capital into. Risk/Return analysis framework helps you determine the optimal balance of Risk vs Return across various investment opportunities. An optimal balance of Risk vs Return in turn minimizes opportunity costs.

When it comes to risk, there are a few concepts I think about:

INVESTMENT Risk Profile - this is the generally accepted level of risk associated with a certain group/class of investments determined by the markets. Stocks are usually riskier than mutual funds, options are usually riskier than stocks, some real estate investments are riskier than stocks or mutual funds, etc.

INVESTOR Risk Tolerance - this is a subjective, personal posture that an investor takes with respect to the different group/class of investments. Some investors feel more comfortable investing in stocks than in real estate because of prior experience of good results. Some investors got bit hard during the 2007 crash and swore off of stocks no matter how lucrative an opportunity appears to be.

INVESTOR Required Rate of Return - this is the minimum rate of return (i.e. IRR or Yield, etc) that I would accept of a particular investment class before I would invest. This Required Rate of Return can be different for a particular investment or class of investments depending on the Risk Profile of the investment and my personal Risk Tolerance.

For example, using the framework above, based on how comfortable I feel investing in the different classes of investments, and my understanding of the level of risks associated with the different classes of investments, I might decide on the following Required Rate of Returns for the various different class of investments:

- 5% Required Rate of Return for Mutual Funds

- 8% Required Rate of Return for Stocks

- 10% Required Rate of Return (i.e. IRR) for Real Estate

Consider the two scenarios below of how Risk comes into play in selecting an investment opportunity within the Risk/Return framework:

- Let's say I have an opportunity to invest in a stock with expected return of 7.5% (i.e. after researching the stock), and another opportunity in an Single Family rental with 11% CoCR, in this case I would likely invest in the Single Family rental. This is because the Rate of Return of the Single Family is higher than my Required Rate of Return. Similarly, I would not invest in the stock investment opportunity because its Rate of Return is lower than my Required Rate of Return.

- Real Estate investors may further break down real estate investment class. For example, 20% Required Rate of Return for an SFR in a high cap rate area (i.e. higher crime, etc) and 6% Required Rate of Return for a fourplex in a low cap rate area with higher income, professional tenants. In this case, if I was offered an SFR with 19% CoC and a fourplex with 7% CoC, I would invest in the fourplex, despite the much lower Rate of Return. This is because the fourplex return of 7% is higher than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments. By the same logic, although the SFR return of 19% is much higher than the fourplex return of 7%, I would pass on it because the SFR return is lower than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments.

This has been a rather long post but it was my intention to give "Risk" equal air time... :-)

BTW if you are using Excel, quite a while back I switched from IRR to XIRR. XIRR does everything IRR does and more... much more. Besides it's more accurate too.

Comments welcome....Immanuel

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  • Property Manager · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2015 · 251 posts · 129 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.,

    Great Post! I am pretty new to REI and when I first got into studying it, and more specifically started looking at the math behind different types of investments, financing deals, etc. I realized that each one had a different method. This made comparison and finding the best route forward extremely challenging, especially for someone new. I started trying to come up with my own methods of simplifying the math; similar to what one would have to do to work with fractions in basic math. That was really how I broke through what most would call analysis paralysis in the math arena. I really enjoyed how you broke this down with good examples and explanations. Thanks.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Zachary C.

    Hi Zach. I'm not sure WHY so many people who are investing are using such a simple calculation other than it's simple.

    Breaking it down like I did above shows how misleading it is.

    The Rate of Return can help everyone identify a lot of Great opportunities that are against ALL asset classes.

    Even within the same Asset Class, the RoR can identify the best one.

    Of course the above is really more of a watered down explanation, but I am trying to understand the logic of not expanding one's mind to look past the CoCR and other simple, non Future type calculations. Things like the GRM, etc. are just not a good indicator of how your Investment may perform except for TODAY.

    The reality is that you need to drive your Investment Vehicle like a Car.

    If you look ONLY in the Rear View Mirror, you will not see the Obstacle in front of you and will crash your Investment Vehicle. The Rear View Mirror represents Past Data like Historic Sales Prices, previous Rents, etc.

    If you look only in the SIDE VIEW, you again will Crash your Investment Vehicle. The Side View are calculations like the GRM, CoCR, etc. They don't have anything to do with the PAST or the Future, only for today.

    If you constantly look through the Windshield to see if the road ahead is clear with no Obstacles, then you can drive your Investment Vehicle fast. If there is an Obstacle, you can take a detour. You can even stop and wait. But you will NOT drive off  Cliff like I have seen so many Investors have done in the past.

    Anyway, as a very experienced Investor for the Last 2 Decades, who had the opportunity to work for some MAJOR investment firms AND the Federal Reserve Bank early in my Career, that's my advice.

    Investor Llew

  • Edward YaoPro Member
    Investor · South Windsor, CT · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.

    Good post. What you articulate here is the difference of so called income return versus total return which include income return and price return. Both have their roles in the evaluation of investment. Total return has assumption of reinvestment return there. For CDs, you have all interests reinvested in CDs and earn interest. But not so for a RE. For some investors, they just want to get passive income and cash flows and want to hold the property indefinitely, Plus it is relatively difficult to predict the future proceeds from selling the property, which would make the total return estimate questionable, while cash flow or income return every period is much more predictable more like interest. In reality, you wouldn't be able to put you monthly rental income back into the property and earn interest on that. So I think both metrics are important to look at, depending on what the investor wants to get from the property, they need to focus more on one metric versus the other.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Edward Yao

    Hi Edward.

    I appreciate the comment.

    I would like to point out that this Rate of Return Calculation:

    I think there is some kind of confusion with this Equivalent CD Rate Calculation and your statement "For CDs, you have all interests reinvested in CDs and earn interest. But not so for a RE."

    If you look at the above, Row F contains all of the yearly Cashflow of $3,004 per year (or $250 per month) and then accumulates it to a total cashflow collected of $30,041 for the whole 10 years.

    There is no Compounding of the Interest here.

    You will get the $30,041 for the next 10 years in Cashflow.

    Additionally, you will sell the property and get an ADDITIONAL $25,926 because the Mortgage went down from the tenants paying the Mortgage.

    So your total that you will receive is $30,041 PLUS $25,926 = $55,926.

    This doesn't happen all at once... this happens every month for 10 years you take your $250 per month Cashflow.

    So, we know 2 things.

    In 2017 you took out of your pocket $30k to invest in the Property you bought for $100k.

    In 2026 you sell the property for the SAME PRICE of $100k. NO APPRECIATION.

    However, over the life time of the Investment... you TURNED $30k into $55,926.

    Given these two things:

    2017 - Invested $30k

    2016 - Returned $55,926

    You can calculate the Rate of Return as 6.43% per year which is calculated in cell K2.

    The Chart in Column I to J from 2017 to 2016 just shows you what it would be like as a CD.

    Hopefully I explained it better.

    Bottom line, the 6.43% has nothing to do with reinvesting the $250 per month. It just boils it down to the Total you have Invested, the Total you collected and what is the Rate of Return over the period of 10 years.

    I think where it got confusing to you is Column J which shows a different Interest based on the 6.43% and then reinvested. To take year 2017 for example, $1,930 was made as a result of the 6.43% Annual Interest and then accumulated for the next year calculation.

    However, that's a hypothetical reinvestment to arrive at the Equivalent CD.

    It is a comparison tool to compare the multiple kinds of asset classes regardless if you took the money on a monthly basis or kept it in. Note that the $1,930 in the hypothetical chart is not the $3,004 actually cashflow.

    I see that my lengthy explanation might need further explaining! Sorry about that!

    To really hammer in these equivalents, it may be necessary to look at a fantastic book called "What Every Real Estate Investor needs to know about Cashflow...." by Frank Galinelli.

    But I'm hoping to show that you don't need to study this for too long to see the Equivalence. But maybe it's too complex. Others can comment.

    Investor Llew

  • Edward YaoPro Member
    Investor · South Windsor, CT · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.

    Thanks for the clarification. This makes more sense to me. Sorry, I didn't look into the numbers too closely. The reason RoR is lower than CoCR is that the return on the investment from the net proceeds of selling the property in ten years after mortgage is actually negative, so the investor loses money on price return so to speak. 

    The way the CD works to yield this 6.43% return has no cash flow within ten years, so if you consider the cash flow used else where can generate value, then 6.43% in RE is probably better than 6.43% in CD, on the other hand, even 100k selling price in 10 years is much less guaranteed than a deposit, so you could end up losing money on selling the property. The weighing among different types of investment should not be just expected return but also the risk of the returns. 

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Edward Yao

    Yes, I agree that there are different Risks/Rewards when it comes to different Asset Classes.

    And yes, CDs can be thought of as much more safer than REI.

    But, if this is the case, you need to be compensated better than the CD would. Which is why there is a comparison.

    Today's CD Rates are at 1% for 10 years.

    The Example Property has the Equivalent of 6.43% in 10 years.

    Is the REI worth the Risk? That's up to the Investor as Risk Tolerance is all individual.

    In fact, I know people who would not Invest in a CD but put their money in their Mattress because they fear a Bank Run like what happened in Greece over the Financial Crisis. So we all have different levels of Risk Tolerance.

    I also know of a friend of mine who makes a lot of money as a Doctor. We knew each other for the last 30 years.

    However, because he never invested, his net worth is FAR below mine.

    He regrets it now because he did not follow my RE Investments over the 2 decades but have now come to realize how lucrative it was.

    Now he is one of my Partners. Better late than never.

    BTW, I don't think that Investors should think of Cashflow as somehow it's always going to be there like a US Treasury Bond. That's not true and the Financial Crisis of 2008 proved that.

    There were reasons why a lot of Cashflowing properties suddenly stop cashflowing and most of that had to do with properties that were in areas where Jobs just dried up.

    In NYC, jobs can dry up a bit, but if it's drying up a bit here, it's devastating in other places.

    NYC Real Estate is like the US Treasury Bond while other places with low income and high crime may certainly not be.

    I would not make a statement that just because you received cashflow now means you will receive cashflow later.

    Investor Llew

  • Edward YaoPro Member
    Investor · South Windsor, CT · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.

    Yes, your comment makes sense. I agree totally. 

  • Investor · Bedford, NY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    The books I've read refer to the Cash on Cash return as a snapshot in time.  It is the return on your cash invested in year 1 of owning the property. It has nothing to do with the possible appreciation of the property, the mortgage reduction or the tax savings. How do you calculate your Cash on Cash return after year 1? Well, that seems a little tricky, as in year 2 your property appreciated and your mortgage balance was reduced. That is real money that you just made in addition to the cash received. How would you account for that money mathematically? Which formula do you use? The Cash on Cash return formula is no longer appropriate, as that only accounts for your initial down payment and the cash flow received.  I believe what @Llewelyn A. is explaining is this very concept and one I don't hear a lot of talk about, which is your total Rate of Return. As I have come to understand it(correct me if I'm wrong), I refer to it as the Internal Rate of Return(IRR). The IRR will take into account the cashflow, appreciation and mortgage reduction for a property. However, the timing of these cash amounts are important as well, which the IRR takes into account.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Ryan Fortier

    I do use the Internal Rate of Return (IRR) normally. But I'm finding the Calculation results to be a bit difficult to interpret. Here is the IRR in the Scenario where you kept all the Cashflow in the Bank Account and then Distributed the money at the end of the 10 year holding Period:

    If you opened your Bank Account and put in $30k, then you renovated for $6.5k, kept all the Cashflows into the Bank Account, sold the property and put the proceeds into the Bank Account as well, you will wind up in year 2026 with $55,967. The IRR for that works out to be EXACTLY as if it was the Rate of Return as I calculated it the the First Post in this Forum.

    I do this as a demonstration against the RoR and the IRR that if the strategy is the same, keep everything in the Bank and not take it out to use, you get a 6.43% on Both.

    Now, let's look at the way you would set up the IRR normally:

    In the Normal IRR Chart, you would set up your 3 Columns of Cashflows. Column T is the Investment/Sales Proc. Note that the Investment is Negative due to a PAYMENT to buy the property. In T14, after selling the Property the proceeds is $25,926.

    We Add another Column for Renovations and another for all the Cashflows (NOI minus Debt Service). We then Total them up and conduct an IRR on the Total Column. It gives us 9.13%

    So you have 2 choices: IRR or RoR. Well, I can definitely explain the 6.43% as both an IRR and a RoR.

    However, the 9.13% IRR which is NOT the Rate of Return. There is a good discussion on this very topic here:

    Good Discussion on the IRR here

    We can probably explore why we should look at the 6.43% RoR versus the 9.13% IRR. I feel that its just easier to understand the RoR more than the IRR so that people who are not Math whizzes (and unfortunately, RE Investors are generally NOT) can move on with a Calculation that can help them make a decision against all Asset Classes.

    Let me know what you think.

    Investor Llew

  • Wholesaler · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2011 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.

    Great post and discussion.  I appreciate that you are explaining things that most others aren't.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Laraine Sookhoo

    Thanks Laraine.

    The problem I am finding for the normal 95% of RE Investors is that they DON'T talk about these calculations. You can see how sophisticated and complicated these are and yet this forum will get buried over time while the most popular forum discussions are things with the normal, simpler calculations such as CoCR.

    This is exactly why I stopped going to Network Meetings. There's no point if I am the only one who can talk in terms of IRR/RoR etc.

    When you get to big business, no one discusses CoCR. You cannot deploy $10s of Millions to $100s of Millions based on CoCR. Everything becomes a IRR calculation or a RoR calculation.

    The simpler calculations are gimmick, I feel. You can probably grow a small amount of properties that way, but you will have to get lucky that there isn't a down turn in the economy which will make your Cashflow disappear for a several months or so. That is usually what makes the CoCR investor wind up losing.

    I am hoping that one day these more sophisticated calculations will be a part of a general discussion here on BP, but I really doubt it.

    Investor Llew

  • Investor · Bedford, NY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A. Regarding the CD, why is the average return($25,967/30k)over the 10 years 8.66% but the interest rate paid is 6.43%? If you were to take the annual interest payment every year and not leave it in the CD to compound, you would be receiving $1,930 every year for 10 years, which is a 6.43% return.  When the money is left in the CD to compound, your average return is greater that the quoted rate.

    If we are not going to touch the annual payment from the CD, but rather leave the money in the CD to compound, wouldn't we need to do the same with the annual cash flow from the property? Somehow reinvest the cash flow into another investment? 

    If I understand the whole concept of your post, you are just trying to compare different investment products based upon the total you have invested, the total you collected at the end of year 10 and what that rate of return is.  Each product will have very different variables and investment features, so you are trying to match up the total money received at year 10?

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Ryan Fortier

    Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

    Basically, treat everything as a CD where you would invest your money.

    In this case, $30k.

    Then, at the end of 10 years, total up all your Cashflows. In this case, $25,967.

    Regardless if you used the cashflow every year, we pretend that you did take it out of the Bank at all but left it in. You did nothing with it but left it sitting there, earning interest on it.

    What this gives us is a Compounded Rate of Return (RoR) of 6.43% for each and every year for the next 10 years.

    Professionals use this number but usually in the form of an IRR. However, the IRR is really not as accurate as the RoR, in my opinion.

    What I'm trying to say is that when you are speaking with those that are doing BIG business... They don't speak about the AVERAGE Return per year. That's because you cannot compare the Average Return per year to other investments such as a simple CD Rate, a Treasury Bond, the Purchase of a Mortgage Note, the Appreciation of a Stock or Buildings, etc. All of these are Compounding Rate of Return Calculations.

    In fact, if you think about it, let's say you worked in a job. Your annual salary is moving up 3% per year. That's also a Compounded Rate of Return (RoR). It's not an AVERAGE Return. Virtually everything we do is a RoR.

    What I'm saying is that the AVERAGE RATE OF RETURN.... calculated by Profit / Investment / Years CANNOT be used to compare against other investments as easily as the Rate of Return (RoR) or the Internal Rate of Return.

    That's exactly why the Bigger Pockets BRRRR Calculator boils everything down to an IRR.

    It's a very difficult concept. I know. I've been teaching this for 10 years and still there are a lot of people from all kinds of educational levels and degrees that have a difficult time absorbing this concept.

    One reason why I taught it was to keep these calculations fresh in my mind and how it should be used.

    It really takes a while before it sinks in but it can only sink in until you do a number of comparisons of a diverse group of investment types.

    Investor Llew

  • Carrollton, TX · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 371 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A.

    Good Dicussion.

    I really don't see a difference in RoR and IRR as you have presented them. IRR is a great metric to evaluate competing investment opportunities. IRR does this by examining the effect of time on the value of cash outlay so timing is everything. In an inflationary environment, the quicker you receive cash the more valuable it is. The more valuable it is the higher the IRR.

    I agree with you that CoCR is not a viable metric because it's calculated year by year therefore ignores the time value of money. As shown by your analysis, the effect of time on the cashflow has impaired the IRR/Rate or Return by 3.58% (i.e. 10.01% - 6.43%). Pretty significant!!

    Another illustration of the effect of time on cashflow is with respect to the IRR of 6.43% vs IRR of 9.13% that you calculated above. As you have stated, the correct one is the IRR of 6.43%. The "normal" IRR of 9.13% is higher because the timing of the cash outlay has been altered. By listing all the annual cashflow of $3,004 on Column V, the IRR formula assumes that those $3,004 payments are actually made which is contrary to your assumption that no cash payments are made until year 10. In both cases the total cash received is the same, $55,967, but the IRR formula recognizes that it is MORE valuable to receive $55,967 by getting $3,004 every year and $28,930 in year 10 THAN to receive a lump sum of $55,967 all in year 10. It is more valuable because part of the $55,967 is received quicker. The quicker you get it the higher the value, the higher the value the higher the IRR (again assuming inflationary environment).

    Also, there are tax implications at the investor level that should be considered. In some scenarios, the implications are insignificant but if you're a 1-percenter they are almost always significant... I'm not a 1-percenter... I only wish :-) Depending on who is in the White House, it's entirely possible the tax implications could tip the scale of IRRs enough to favor one class of investments over another. (i.e. the impact on IRR of the various tax treatment of dividends, capital gain, rental income, preferance deductions, etc).

    Changing direction a little bit here... we have covered much about IRR or Rate of Return, and CoCr, but not so much about the other side of the coin which is "Risk", so the rest of my post invites you to go into the subject of Risk. There is a couple of mentions of Risk in this post but not nearly enough coverage given the importance of Risk analysis in selecting an investment opportunity. In fact I think Risk analysis is just as important as Return calculation. They are two sides of the same coin. Part of the reason risk is not talked about as much as Return is because, unlike Return, Risk is hard to quantify and is subjective to each investor.

    Both Risk and Return form a framework which I use to make investment decisions. This framework is really just a simple Risk vs Return analysis. Investing in general is like a game, the object of which is to deploy capital into the most profitable investment opportunity. The problem is, capital is a scarce resource. Anytime you deal with scarce resources you are confronted with opportunity costs. So somehow you must come up with an effective way to determine which investment opportunity is the best to deploy your scarce capital into. Risk/Return analysis framework helps you determine the optimal balance of Risk vs Return across various investment opportunities. An optimal balance of Risk vs Return in turn minimizes opportunity costs.

    When it comes to risk, there are a few concepts I think about:

    INVESTMENT Risk Profile - this is the generally accepted level of risk associated with a certain group/class of investments determined by the markets. Stocks are usually riskier than mutual funds, options are usually riskier than stocks, some real estate investments are riskier than stocks or mutual funds, etc.

    INVESTOR Risk Tolerance - this is a subjective, personal posture that an investor takes with respect to the different group/class of investments. Some investors feel more comfortable investing in stocks than in real estate because of prior experience of good results. Some investors got bit hard during the 2007 crash and swore off of stocks no matter how lucrative an opportunity appears to be.

    INVESTOR Required Rate of Return - this is the minimum rate of return (i.e. IRR or Yield, etc) that I would accept of a particular investment class before I would invest. This Required Rate of Return can be different for a particular investment or class of investments depending on the Risk Profile of the investment and my personal Risk Tolerance.

    For example, using the framework above, based on how comfortable I feel investing in the different classes of investments, and my understanding of the level of risks associated with the different classes of investments, I might decide on the following Required Rate of Returns for the various different class of investments:

    - 5% Required Rate of Return for Mutual Funds

    - 8% Required Rate of Return for Stocks

    - 10% Required Rate of Return (i.e. IRR) for Real Estate

    Consider the two scenarios below of how Risk comes into play in selecting an investment opportunity within the Risk/Return framework:

    - Let's say I have an opportunity to invest in a stock with expected return of 7.5% (i.e. after researching the stock), and another opportunity in an Single Family rental with 11% CoCR, in this case I would likely invest in the Single Family rental. This is because the Rate of Return of the Single Family is higher than my Required Rate of Return. Similarly, I would not invest in the stock investment opportunity because its Rate of Return is lower than my Required Rate of Return.

    - Real Estate investors may further break down real estate investment class. For example, 20% Required Rate of Return for an SFR in a high cap rate area (i.e. higher crime, etc) and 6% Required Rate of Return for a fourplex in a low cap rate area with higher income, professional tenants. In this case, if I was offered an SFR with 19% CoC and a fourplex with 7% CoC, I would invest in the fourplex, despite the much lower Rate of Return. This is because the fourplex return of 7% is higher than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments. By the same logic, although the SFR return of 19% is much higher than the fourplex return of 7%, I would pass on it because the SFR return is lower than my Required Rate of Return for its class of investments.

    This has been a rather long post but it was my intention to give "Risk" equal air time... :-)

    BTW if you are using Excel, quite a while back I switched from IRR to XIRR. XIRR does everything IRR does and more... much more. Besides it's more accurate too.

    Comments welcome....Immanuel

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