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All Forum Posts by: Bill Gulley

Bill Gulley has started 163 posts and replied 19766 times.

Post: STARTING OUT WITHOUT ANY MONEY!

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
If I mail them for them, they will get there in time and the oranges will be sent the next day! So if you'll just send me $29.95 for the ice cubes and $379.99 for shipping and handling, you'll get your oranges!

LOL, Bill


Sound very much like those deals on eBay... :wink:


Hi, LOL! Well Eddie, even old dogs can lean new tricks.

Your point on education, using other assets available when funds are low, is really the way any no money down deal is done! I had an elderly lady who was rather well off, owned a farm about four miles from center city that had been in the family since the 1860s. She would have someone bring in a few head of cattle twice a year to graze to keep her zoning. She had been visted by at least a hundred really gutsy Realtors and developers to buy it or sell it, she had a shotgun near the door of the old house just for them!
I knocked on the door as the executive director of a non-profit housing organization. I wanted to build SFDs for low/moderate income folks and explained that she would really have a tax liabilty on the place if she ever sold it. After going on about her situation, and explaning that I would have a small park for the little children as she called them, I suggested we go see a good trust attorney I knew.
We set up a caritable remainder trust, with one of her choices as a beneficiary being my non-profit. She had six heirs she was to provide for. I suggested she seller finance the place and fund the trust with some cash and the note. I used one note, but in six different parts of prinicpal that represented the toatal loan. Each part was for the benefit of each of her family memebers. We talked about the development and we also needed funds for engineering costs. She then decided and offered to pay those costs to get the ball running, I said great, we can add that to the note! She said no, I'm saving alot more money than since you are helping me paln my estate, I'll just pay for that. Well, thank you I replied! Then she asked how much the organization had and I told her. She asked if that was enough. Well she uped it by 25K. So, when I closed the 100% financed deal, we received funds for engineering costs and a check for 25K at closing. This was a about a $750K deal, so if you want to talk about no money down and cash out deals, I'd have to say that was my top deal!
So, Eddie, is that what you meant? I'm not bringing it up to boast, but those who have business experience outside that preached by some guru program will be able to succeed in real estate. And, you'll never do a deal like that from a guru seminar, I'll put money on it. If you don't have money, get an education, and not from some tape or book!
I'm sure this whole idea of buying property with no money, no credit and no job had to have come out of the mouth of some guy who was selling a book!
Bill

Post: Advice on Loans

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, I would suggest that you simply get a private loan for a short term, say three years, without a prepayment penalty. What you're lookin at here is a cash out re-fi on a non-owner occupied property and that might be tough to do. Some banks will do that on a porfolio loan basis, but there will probably be an appraisal, points and settlement costs and you won't be at a rate much lower than a private loan. Fix the property and invest the difference or maybe you can find a private lender that will loan say 20K with a future advance provision for future draws. Borrowing money at a higher rate than you get on you investment (like a bak deposit) is not really good business. You could use the additional money for a down payment if you have had those funds in an account for say four months. On a new loan, report the full amount of the loan, the fact that those funds on account came from your loan is irrelevant. The question, is any part of the down payment borrowed really means did you borrow money on the subject property for the down payment, not that have you ever booorwed money in the past from other transaction where remaining amounts from those loans remain and you intend to use thos funds for part of the down payment. So long as you total debts and obligations are reported, as well as you cash on hand, you are not held to any higher standard for the use of funds unless you intend to incumber the subject property. Additionally, it does not matter how many people are on title. Among all those in title there must be the ability to qualify for the debt. It can be one person or among any combination of owners. Multiple owners, more than two, need to be related by blood or marriage. However, one owner amoung multiple owners with poor credit may pose a problem, but if the party who qualifies financially has sufficient credit, such problems may be overlooked. Not all owners need to sign the note but they do need to sign the security agreement. After having the non-owner occupied property financed over one year, you could refinance the remaining debt conventionally avoiding the cash-out restriction. Underwriting guidelines for re-fis of non-owner occupied properties may change, either in secondary market loans or coventional portfolioed loans, so make sure your private financing won't blow up before you are sure you can meet that obligation. At least, that's what I'm thinking the easiest thing would be. Bill

Post: HML as exit strategy in wholesaling

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, some good ideas and points here. One of the first things I consider when looking/considering a rehab, is timing in my local market. Where are you going to be after two months of rehab and three weeks or so in marketing? If you contract for the purchase of you rehab deal on Spetember 5th, you may not close before the first of Oct, rehab for 2 months puts you trying to market it just before Christmas, if that takes 30 days for the retail attempt, you're looking at the dead of winter and people here don't move alot in the snow! So, you'll likely be waiting the end of March before buyers begin looking again. As far as being in a financial position to do a deal, I think you need 6 months debt coverage and twice the estimated costs of the rehab in addition to any down payment required. In addition to that cash reserve, you should have a secondary source of funds, if nothing but an open credit card equal to the cost of the rehab and six months debt coverage. I know this sounds like alot of reserves, but when you consider finding that your rehab breaks open a wall and exposes old asbestos siding, that you need to replace a furnace and then it remains on the market for 90 days, you'll need more than you may have originally thought. Good Luck, Bill

Post: Selling Notes

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

HI, let's go a little deeper. There is a basic economic concept referred to as an "opportunity cost". If you have have two (or more) opportunities to invest, the difference bewteen the two (or more) investments in selecting the investment with the lower return is the "cost" of selecting that lower return investment. Now, why might an investor choose a lower return on any investment? There may be many reasons, but two main considerations are the degree of risk and the use of funds. Private notes are rarely underwritten by any consistant guideline. A farmer who sells 50 acres to his neighbor usually makes the deal out of marketing and personal considerations, not from a risk management analysis. While the farmer may know his neighbor, his decission to finance the deal could be purely subjective. Investors don't know the borrower and therefore must use more objective and calculated analysis to assess the risk involved. SInce money, for everyone is a limited commodity an investor will also choose an investment that provides the highest return or the best use of their funds. Books have been written on both of these aspects.
A balance between acceptable risk and the highest return can be a daunting decission. I would have to say that most individuals, based on my personal experience in dealing in the paper business for over 15 years, lack the knowledge required to assess a fair value of a privatley originated note. Further, even if they do have a knowledge of real estate and finance, and after trying to assess a fair market value, they will soon find that a generalized rule of thumb usually meets their personal investment goals. What ever they then determine to be the highest yield requirement usually becomes their target yield on any note. Going at it from this simplified approach, with perhaps a quick check of the property and limited due diligence, becomes their standard assessment and basis for making an offer.

Institutional investors, companys that leverage or borrow money to purchase privately held notes are much more sophisticated in their analysis. Considerations include actual underwriting guielines and requirements which must be met due to the requirements made on them by their lenders or investors. Again, since most privately held notes or debt contracts have been made on a subjective basis, the task at hand for the institutional investor is to underwrite the deal under these guidelines. Even at this level of a more sophisticated financial assessment, a target yield will be identified. Interest rate risk for a large institutional investor is a consideration. A move in interest rates will effect their cost of borrowing money to acquire notes in the future. Inflationary periods are really of a lesser concern than for a bank since privately originated obligations are for shorter terms. Most notes require a balloon payment in five years or less. Since institutional investors deal in a volume of these obligations, they "block" loans or consolidate many loans in groups based on a maturity distribution (when a note becomes due) providing a weighted average yield. I won't go beyond that, but again, all of this will effect the expected return and therefore the present value of an obligation to them.

As with anything, the market will dictate a price as well, if someone has a note for sale, where do they go to sell it. You can't go to your local bank and do this deal with the teller. In the scope of things, buyers are really limited for these obligations. They are more marketable these days than they were say 15 years ago as more investors enter the paper market and most deals are leveraged as opposed to simply being purchased by an individual from his bank account. So, if you have a limited secondary market for anything the price will be lower for a seller and profit higher for any buyer. Simply a suppl and demand function. It's a buyer's market. In the beginning of the private real estate note market, there were only private investors. When the word gets out about potential money to be made in any market others (and larger entities) enter the market. Historically yields have been high for investors in this market due to these factors. As more have entered the market more competiton for a quality note has been seen and "prices" have decreased for the buyer, but not to a level of conventional loans. While there are billions in the private papaer market it is still a small portion of the financial sector.

When I purchased and brokered these obligations I always suggested that the seller search the market. I was usually offering the best deal for properties that I could reach out and touch and expecially where I could assess financial aspects. When I appraised for the market values of privately held financial contracts for state government, I found many notes that were so poorly written or constructed that they simply were not marketable, especially notes made between related parties.

Privataely originated notes are almost viwed as collateral loans, like auto title loans. A buyer of such an obligation may not be able to obtain a credit report since no authorization to do so was ever given. So, the price for a note is what the market will bear under these conditions. It arises from economic, financial and market conditions at the time the obligation is presented into the market. I'm sorry this is so long, but hope you have a better understanding of the paper game now. Good Luck, Bill

Post: Fl Keys Comm. Property, Redevelop or Sell For Less?

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, I see that you have your idea about land use. I suggest you step out of that box. Talk to your county zonning folks and ask them what they see as the highest and best use. Ask an appraiser. Form your development around that first. Do you know a Tax Credit Developer? You can do SFDs and commercial in a mixed use project, You can partner with the dveloper as the land owner and survey property out that you would like to keep. HWY frontage is not really best for LIHTCs. Your school idea may be helpful as a non-profit, can you hook up with a local technical school, if so, they can get money for develp. or purchase part of the property if additional class rooms for, say small engine repair, etc, could be an option for them. Sometimes, a government agency/school never thinks of expanding until they are given a proposal and option to do so.
I guess I'm suggesting first, that you step back from your ideas and see what others in the area think the higest and best use might be, then step back in you thinking and see how you might paly off other ideas to meet you goals. Gosh, a motel might want it and buy it, or perhaps you could get off the main road and trade for more land that would give you more options. Good Luck, Bill

Post: HML for Wholesaled Deal

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, IF the wholesaler is doing repairs, contract with him to do so with his price in a construction/repair contract and you and the seller sign it. Have the seller clean up the purchase contract with you as the buyer with you agreeing to pay the sale price plus costs of repairs and attach it to your purchase agreement.

But, if all they wanted was a copy of the wholesale deal, why not show it to them? Hmmm?

What you have ommitted is the sale price today in it's as is condition, which is what the lender has to loan on. Unless you have an appraisal with an Estimated Market Value with repairs, any claims to an ARV means nothing to a lender and is nothing more than a preceived value. Lenders do not loan on preceived values, unless it's preceived by an approved appraiser with a punch list.

Look at it this way, I can buy a place for 51,000 and if I got a loan at 55% of your ARV of 170,000. I get 93,500. Then I could put 34,000 in it to bring it to your claimed ARV. What happened here?
1. As a lender I just made a loan at an LTV of 110% of value, since on an acquisition the loan to value is the cost of acquisition or the appraised value, WHICH EVER IS LESS!
2. Not only did I make a 110% LTV, but I did it as a cash out purchase at $8,500.00! Totally not cool for a bank.

Did you take a guru course? If you did, I hope you didn't pay more than $19.95!

If you need help on the deal, contact me....good luck, Bill

Post: Self-Directed IRA questions

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Has anyone used PENSCO Trust? Theu specialize in RE with self directed accounts. Also, seems you would form the LLC with the property and assets in it, then transfer it to the account, then do your roll overs. And, what's the fee for an LLC in CA? Can't have a foreign corp/LLC (like Utah) in CA? Bill

Post: Investing in France

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, I think you guys are just messing with me! I read the first post, then the relpies, so I didn't catch it at first so i went back to see what was wrong, well, I was thinking that Farnce was only accross the channel from England and from Italy there is the Mediterranean. So I couldn't figure out France was overseas for buyers in Europe. So, let's read the two sentences again! Well, they are exactly the same! So, then it dawned on me that when Josh corrected it, the original sentenance no long appears. So, now my question remains, for overseas buyers in Europe, do they now perfer France over Spain?

Last few days, I've been checking out properties in Italy! They seem to be alot cheaper than France or Spain and can't even find anything in Germany along the Rhine!

LOL, Bill

Post: Making an offer

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi Jeff, good to see ya! Dustin, what are the comps telling you it's worth. What is it worth to you, you certainly have options. I like getting a property at 40% but then I don't have to try to steal a deal to make it a deal for me. I've bought many at full price and a couple for more than they asked, well, that's a bidding war and I don't lose those! It's an offer they can't refuse and others can't or won't beat! LOL So, what's it worth and how can you make it work for you? Bill

Post: advice for starting developer

Bill Gulley#3 Guru, Book, & Course Reviews ContributorPosted
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator
  • Springfield, MO
  • Posts 21,918
  • Votes 12,877

Hi, well, no it really wasn't, I just used blogger as a sarcastic example, since i have greater expectations for Dustin! I guess we are all bloggers aren't we?

I don't bark too loud on this site but there is another site that I cut less slack on. I guess that's because this bunch, as a whole, seem to be more sophisticated. There are some sharp folks on here.

If I see something that I feel is slightly tilted, not quite right or just off center I correct it since there are so many trying to strat out in real estate and if they get the wrong impression, it may really spell trouble for them. So, yes, with my background and experiences I guess I'm a watchdog. Wait till you hear me on some of the gurus!

I hope you'll stay with us, the bark is worse than the bite, LOL. Good Luck,

Now, Joshua, I appoligize for getting off topic here with your forum post. If you want to catch up with your thoughts, chime back in....Bill