All Forum Posts by: Dominique Osborn

@Kelly Farmer   Oz Realty is a full property management service company, we never have advertised or had ambitions to become a home listing agency...  If you look these company's up for Toledo Ohio...   You won't find Oz Realty, you'll see Keller Williams, Key Realty, Danberry Realty.

They specialize in home sales on the MLS.

Oz Realty certainly does not, and if you review our website-- we don't promote listing properties for sale at all. Quite evidently, it is not our expertise. 

If you sought a referral from your dentist for a furniture designer-- and then went with that referral without question. Contracted the designer and blindly let them design your home.... You ended up not liking the design at all--- would you go back to the dentist, blaming and slandering him that the referral didn't work out? 

We provided you a resource we had-- but ultimately it is your decision who to go with and to discern if someone was representing your property to the market in the best light, to receive the most desirable outcome for you. Especially it being a significant investment of yours... Again, that comes down to you doing your due diligence, asking the right questions, etc...  All agents are not the same---  Personally i've worked with agents for some out of state/country transactions we've done and have been disappointed in them-- felt like they weren't making moves or ambitious enough to assist me in reaching my goals and I've had to cancel them and find someone else more aligned. I didn't just "accept" what they told me and give up on my investment goal. I'd need to have gone through three agents, speak with at least two local investors, and have an ongoing BP thread going w/ numerous input for that to happen.....

Again, i'm urging from you some ownership here--- but it seems we will agree to disagree.  My conscious is clean, regardless, myself and my team will learn from this and will continue being open to growing and bettering ourselves and always seek how we can offer a better service to our clients and the investor who trust us. Thank you for this opportunity to grow and I am sorry you feel you were wronged. I genuinely wish you success in your future endeavors.

 Hi Nathan! Our PM company are considering moving from trad. sec deposit transactions to Obligo.. I saw this thread, and then saw your above comment. Would love if you shared how its been for you bringing this method of "insurance" in house from a pm owners perspective :) 

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

U know sometimes you just have to take ownership of what you did what are you expecting out of a 65k house. Perfection  perfection in the build quality and condition perfect tenants.. the problem that I see is you went cheap and simply dont understand that properties at those price points are never going to be perfect they are old to older homes.. and your tenant base is basically the folks that can only afford that quality of housing so you get what you pay for.
U have to use logic and not just blame everyone for your choosing to invest in low value assets . These assets perform the exact same way in every market in the US. 

I mean just read all the threads right now on BP about syndicators having issues and investors not only getting ZERO returns but a real chance of a 100% loss.. so you did not make 9% no one guarantees your returns. And values are just an opinion at the time of an appraisal means nothing to value ..  If your going to buy these assets its UP TO YOU to have your PM and Pay your PM for quarterly inspections and then fix what is needed so you dont end up in this situation.. but of course if you did that its going to hurt your perfect calculated 9% return.

 You're right and I completely agree. This one's 100% on me. I should have been smarter. My gut was telling me not to trust Engelo, but I had some cash and offsetable capital gains on the sidelines, so thought I'd give turnkey a try. This is definitely not going to break the bank. I just wanted future turnkey investors to know what they were in store for. 

Thanks for the comment.

You have received a reply from the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor.

Someone that has known first hand how I operate and has played a huge part on putting my company on the map.

Someone that has no problems calling me out if/when I'm wrong.

So for all reading, I think Jay's words speak enough volume.

With your negative reviews blasted across every known Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty review platform, it doesn't seem like you are taking responsibility so I disagree.

You are out for blood and that's fine.

You can have as much of mine as you want if it makes you "survive" and feel better.

As someone that wears his heart on his sleeve and bleeds for the business and our investors I'm happy to take 100% responsibility.

I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have.

There are others ways to resolve such matters.

You could have approached me privately but "No".

You waited to sell the property and the day it sold you went on this rampage...

Reading our correspondence over my gut was telling me the same to not work with you.

Below are some of your comments from a few years ago.

It's such a shame it has come to this.

This conversation becomes more and more absurd as it continues: I lost $15,800 buying a property from you. I admitted being wrong buying one of your properties. I don't know any other way to "take responsibility" beyond eating that $hit burger. I wrote a review about my experience with your business. Hell, I paid $15,800 to be able to write it and I'm still in the wrong?

A recap of my review: "I bought the property for $65k. It was worth $50k (three years later, so don't expect appreciation). It's turnkey, but there will be a lot of repairs beyond the initial agreed upon improvements. Lonna (the property manger) was great. The place delivered 3% returns. There will be tenant turnover, which will eat into returns."

Fast forward to today:

Engelo: "I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have. There are others ways to resolve such matters. You could have approached me privately but "No"."

Me: Literally ALL of "our" (YOU don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property) correspondence was private. Was I supposed to ask? "Hey, would you pay me $15,800 to recoup the losses for the $hit burger I bought three years ago?" Instead, I asked:

"Lonna,

Hello. I hope you are well.

After a year since my last email regarding potentially selling the property, I'm again considering it. I'm not sure that I want to increase the number of properties I own (which you said would increase my chances of return), so I was wondering what my options were. I think Ohio Cashflow and what you guys offer are both great, but again, if I'm not trying to build a more significant portfolio of properties, it might make sense for me to pursue other investment options.

Well I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.

Kelly Farmer"

The response:

"In my opinion you have a few options to consider:
1) List on the MLS (Not us but another agent that we can refer) (A commission will need to be paid to the agent and we have no idea of how long it will take to sell. Financing, appraisals and building inspections from prospect buyers could delay the closing quite a bit. The property can be listed through our "in-house" and trusted agent. We can request a discount on the listing fee and it will be most likely 1-3% and you will still need to pay the buyers agent fee. In Toledo properties take longer to sell than any other market. Toledo is known as a “Buy & Hold” market and not one where quick gains are made)
2) We can attempt selling through a sales channel (A commission will need to get paid to the sales channel and we believe some properties could sell quicker than the MLS. Some might sit for longer so please keep this in mind also. We are at the mercy of the sales channel. Ohio Cashflow makes no commission and the sales channels make anywhere from $7,000 - $15,000 for selling a property. The buyer would mostly likely be a cash buyer so their wouldn’t be too many hoops to jump through)
3) Ohio Cashflow can sell (A $15,000 commission would need to get paid to us and we also can’t guarantee how quickly we can sell as our #1 priority is selling properties that have just been rehabbed. Our livelihood depends on the volume of deals that we produce so existing deals where most of our capital is tied up are priority. The $15,000 might seem steep but when you calculate sales commissions to employees, closing commission to deal coordinator, administrative fees, marketing and the "opportunity cost" off not selling another property we own, we actually don’t make anything)
Those are pretty much the options at hand."

Back to our conversation:
Thank you for the screenshots to walk me down memory lane. For our readers, I'll remind them that YOU (Engelo) weren't dealing with me at that point so you have no idea about ANYTHING that was going on until you looked up our emails in the last three days. I wrote (per your screenshot):

"Engelo,
Hey, long time no talk. First I just wanted to thank you for 2021. I've been really happy with Ohio Cashflow and my investment with you guys."

As a mental exercise, can you imagine the perspective of an investor that bought a property from you just 8 months prior to that email, had his FIRST TENANT miss payments, lie about making payments, make partial payments, then ultimately skip out on four months rent? AND THEN...as part of the process, have to pay legal fees to evict the tenant? Should I say it again...MY FIRST TENANT?!?!

I can say this with 100% honesty from my heart of hearts, I was thinking, "F@@@@ck!! F@@@@ck!! What did I get myself into? Maybe if I kill them with kindness they won't f@ck me over with the next tenant."
So please don't have any misconceptions that I was in love with Ohio Cashflow and it (for some unknown reason) went sour. I thought "f@ck" from month five or six, but was hoping that being nice would turn a $hitburger into a $hit-cheeseburger.

Oh, and then shortly thereafter I got saddled with $800+ water bills IN THE FIRST YEAR AS AN OHIO CASHFLOW INVESTOR. Dude, this is comical. I'm bad. You're good. Thank you for repeatedly reminding me that "I just needed to buy more properties."      


Dude, I was a customer of yours. I bought a property from you. You bought it for $33k, put $10k (maybe?) into it  and sold it to me for $65k. Fine. I signed up for that. You advertised 9% cap rates, said to expect 7% (I understood and agreed to that), and it delivered 3% over three years.

And now, from left field, I have a different real estate investor weighing in. I only mention this because according to you he's "the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor":

"its up to the owner to have them inspected quarterly and remedy wet spots or mold at the first sign.. Not wait two years then be shocked and blame the guy who sold you the house."

A summary of my relationship with Ohio Cashflow: I live in Japan. I bought a turnkey property from Ohio Cashflow for cashflow in 2021. I had NO idea about the actual condition of the property because I was relying on Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty to take care of it. My last tenant moved out at the end of November 2023. AFTER A PROPERTY INSPECTION, I was advised to keep the property vacant to appeal to potential buyers. I agreed. Fast forward to April 2024: The buyer ended up finding mold damage in the basement. I'm now being criticized for not having had the property inspected quarterly. Ba-Jeebus! I'm at fault for MY PROPERTY MANAGER not checking the basement LITERALLY FOUR MONTHS BEFORE after the prior tenant moved out?!?! FFS! Was I supposed to say: "Hey Oz Realty, I've never been to the place, but would you please check the basement to make sure there's no mold in it?"?

I have to repeat this: I TRUSTED MY PROPERTY MANAGER TO MANAGE MY PROPERTY. When the previous tenant moved out: NO COMMENT. NOTHING. But now, I'M at fault for not realizing there was significant mold damage in the foundation.

I have spent too much time thinking about this, but if we want to keep digging, pass me a shovel. 

Actually mate, stopped being comical to me and became quite sad. Maybe some other underlying issues present not even related to this property? Look, I suggest we stop as there is enough for all to see. Otherwise, I have all the time in the world to watch you keep digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself. 

Plus, this back and forth is only benefiting Ohio Cashflow as other companies that scam people and don't care, won't have the owner like me replying with data, screenshots and facts for over 5 days now.

But it's up to you and I'm here if needed 🤷‍♂️

A recap of my reply backed with data and screenshots: Investor bought property for $65,000 and sold for $48,500 at his own will and blames us/the market for no appreciation. Current comparable sales indicate a market value of $80,000+. This can easily be seen with current MLS sales data that I showed in a post above. Criteria used was half a mile radius, less than 360 days old, same bed and bath size and similar look/style and sqft.

The property delivered 3% returns and my office manager Lonna is great, but I am not (Even tho Lonna and Engelo work side by side for 8+ years now and are 100% in sync on everything).

Investor was casually and friendly advised to build a larger portfolio in order to potentially reap a better return on investment over time (It didn't have to be with Ohio Cashflow as we NEVER talk ourselves into business).

Fast Forward To TODAY: It is INCORRECT that I don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property. Every investor has my direct cell phone number as every introduction call is conducted from my personal cell number. I'm a call or txt or email away. Engelo looks after intro calls, deal presentation along with strategy, portfolio building/planning. The team and the beloved Lonna look after deal coordination, rehabs and property management, etc... This is clearly stressed during the intro call. With our business being so niche and boutique and only having around 200 investors. EVERYTHING goes through me directly. Again, the team will tell me if a mosquito farted so in a way you are corresponding with your un-beloved Engelo indirectly for many moving parts of the total operation.

Engelo # 646 899 0375

Unfortunately, you turned this into a S#@% burger and still aren't taking the responsibility. You're replies are back and forth, contradicting and confusing. "I ADMITTED BEING WRONG" - "I'M STILL IN THE WRONG"? (Questioning if you are).

Which one is it?

Unlike you, I will take responsibility even if I believe that it wasn't my wrong doing.

My word is my honor...

Back to our conversation: As we have already mentioned but let's take a deeper dive. Ohio Cashflow has been a boutique turnkey provider since 2014. We sell a maximum of 5 properties per month and usually turn down a lot of business due to not willing to work with investors wanting to finance. Along with doing our best to try and dodge bullets from such investors in this thread. Engelo deals with everyone directly or indirectly. So when investor say's he "Likes" Lonna, but doesn't like me. Lonna replies based on the core values and principles of the company culture which was created by the un-beloved Engelo in 2014 and tweaked over the years for the betterment of the whole 🤷‍♂️

Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty have 7 full time employees and 8 remote workers that are "under the same roof". We dwell in a 1,500sqft office so as you can imagine. A very tight group of people that works hard and does it's best and where Engelo is usually made aware of everything and gives guidance on everything.

Screenshot from an old BP post where we turn down business due to not believing in a good fit. Not sure how we practice "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" as our current investor claimed in prior replies further above.

We dodged a bullet with one Kelly. But unfortunately we didn't with another Kelly.

So as you claim that Engelo Rumora uses "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" and even made fun of it in your prior replies. Based on the screenshot below, you are using manipulation and false pretenses by offering to send a gift to my office to "Kill us with kindness" so we "Don't F@#$ you over on the next tenant" when in fact you "aren't in love with Ohio Cashflow". I guess, I'll let Lonna know because Lonna pre-qualifies all tenants. But wait, I thought you liked her but now you think she is "F#@%ing you with tenant placement". 

WTF is going on here mate??????? 

Let's please stop this sadness...

Anyhow, I'm sorry you think in this way as Oz Realty doesn't intentionally place tenants in a property to "F@#$" investors over. If the tenant doesn't pay, we don't get paid long term and it's a loose/loose/loose for all. It really is a shame that you believed that this was going on.

Some personal insecurities maybe not related to business?

Ohio Cashflow Purchase $33,000

Rehab Cost $16,000

Profit $15,900

We undersold the property and usually aim to make higher profits. By all means to anyone reading, feel free to do it all yourself. You don't need us... If you do decide to work with us, have piece of mind in knowing that as the owner of Ohio Cashflow my goal is to make as much profit as I possibly can on each deal while not overcapitalizing on the rehab for your future Capex benefits and by keeping the property sale price at fair market value. Price is what you pay, value is what you get. We have stood the test of time as a profitable and boutique turnkey provider. We employ great people who are paid on time and paid well. Thank you for trusting us and investing with us. Happy to be of transparent service to you 🙏

From "CENTER" field and according to 49 years of experience mate... and the most comments and likes out of 2M+ Bigger Pockets subscribers...

Honestly mate, it really stopped being comical and turned sad. Let's please stop for your sake 🙏

Again, I can do this all day as it's good for business. If need be, I can get Lonna and Dominique to chip in also so we can have a keyboard cowboy party.

I owned real estate in Japan and have known the culture very well and the honor.

Do you think this back and forth between us is honorable?

There is enough for all to see and decide.

Let's let it go and focus on moving forward.

But again, I'll keep dancing if you keep singing.

Also, you keep mentioning the $800 water bill. Can I get Lonna to pay that back to you? It will be out of my personal pocket but I will tell her to tell you it was from her personal pocket lol

Happy to cover for the missed mold stuff also I guess even tho if a property is vacant and getting ready to be sold, our property management company doesn't set up camp at the property until sold. Doing minor repairs and upkeep and "get ready" to list and sell are up to you and the realtor. Or instruct us and we will assist.

I'm sure you have Lonna's email address and the team is following the thread in disbelief anyway. Feel free to reach out and we will compensate financially to soften some of the unfortunate looses you have incurred.

I have a big heart mate and give more away than anyone will every know. Probably would have no issues putting my hand in my pocket and giving you the $15,800 you claim that you have lost at my doing. The only reason I won't because then others reading would take advantage of me in the same way like some are trying to now because they saw that from time to time we buy back a property from an investor that we want to get out of our lives.

God Bless you mate 🙏

ps. This is what it looks like when an investors buys with cash, builds a larger portfolio, takes responsibility and holds long term

 Dude, if you're willing to compensate my losses, I will HAPPILY sing your, Ohio Cashflow, and Oz Realty's praises, and update my reviews to express my gratitude and appreciation for you doing something that generous. 

I'd rather not keep going at this, but like you, I can.

Until tomorrow. Goodnight from Japan.

 @Kelly Farmer  As a sign of good faith I would be willing to pay your $800 water bill that was mistakenly put into your tenants name by the City (not my team), in addition to that we will recoup you $800 for the mold that the inspector discovered in the basement of your 99yr old property. 

I'm afraid I can't cover the losses resulting from you grossly underselling your property... It's a lesson you'll need to absorb in your journey to becoming a more astute investor. A lesson i've personally paid many times along my journey, and I'm sure these other guys in this chain have some brutal stories they could share as well....  ( perhaps that would be an interesting new thread to start)

As for my offer, I'd appreciate it if you retracted the slanderous comments aimed at my company, and my partner... Let's part ways on decent terms, wishing each other success in our future endeavors.

Thank you for your response and for highlighting an important aspect of your comment... I appreciate your candor and the opportunity to clarify..

You raised a valid point regarding your initial statement. I noticed that you mentioned "businesses like this" without specific knowledge of our company's operations. While I understand your concern about potential grey areas in certain industries, it's crucial to differentiate between businesses based on their individual practices and compliance standards.

In our case, I want to assure you that we prioritize transparency, integrity, and compliance with all applicable regulations. While your concern is valid, I believe it's essential to address specific issues rather than making general assumptions about businesses.

In context to Engelo's comments, he's expressing his exasperation to further finessing who we decide to work with... if you read the full thread you'd see the unfortunate emotional banter from a prior investor that's taken place leading up to this... Erm, so Engelo is basically portraying he is willing to turn down more business than we take on to insure we avoid the drama that comes with doing business with individuals that aren't aligned. 

I feel confident that this act isn't acting in the "grey areas" of companies that become investigated by federal governments... if you are insinuating the cause to the former investors distress is something to feel concern that the federal government might investigate upon... well I'd again, urge you to read the entire thread and you will find sufficient evidence there showcasing in transparency, exactly how we operate.... no grey areas to be found there.

However I appreciate your concern :) 

If you have any questions or would like more information about our company and its practices, please feel free to reach out. I'm happy to provide clarification and address any concerns you may have.

Hi @Kelly Farmer

As Engelo's partner and Co Founder to Ohio Cashflow, apologies that i'm late to the party, but I wanted to jump in and offer my reflection on the above thread and more directly, the issues you've brought up regarding your investment and the accusations you harbor towards my company. 

I understand your frustrations regarding your investment in a turnkey property with Ohio Cashflow that you purchased in 2021- and the subsequent challenges you faced with tenant turnover and maintenance expenses. It's always disheartening when investments don't yield the expected returns.

I want to address your concerns regarding the property inspection revealing mold in the basement, which led to selling the property at a further discount…Firstly, I want to express my empathy towards your situation. Dealing with unexpected issues like this can be stressful and disappointing… However I do not feel you did yourself or the property honor by allowing this information to scare you into feeling the property was worthless, or that as you relayed the mold could “ruin a foundation”… (foundations are ruined by much more signifiant factors and not that of mold) I feel you were intimidated here, my friend.

I want to shed light on the broader context of the real estate market, especially in blue collar cities like Toledo, which experienced economic challenges following the COVID-19 pandemic. These challenges resulted in higher-than-anticipated tenant turnover and increased maintenance costs for many properties, including those in our investors portfolio as well as our personal portfolio. So not to overly lean on the excuse of the pandemic as some may do, but more sharing the data that anyone can pull up regarding rentals profitability, vacancy, and eviction rates for years 20'- 22'. . . . I'd make a bet that a huge percentage of investors on BiggerPockets ROI on their rentals was significantly lower during these years. And I'd further make a stance that it took mostly likely more than 3 years for the single property investors to recover…. that's if they did pull threw positively.

It's important to note that investing in any real estate, especially in the turnkey market, carries inherent risks. While some investors weathered these challenges better due to diversified portfolios, others, like yourself, felt the impact more acutely with single-property investments.

When Engelo and I founded Ohio Cashflow in 2014, we were driven by the desire to provide honest, transparent, and reliable services in an industry plagued by stigma. Engelo himself experienced losses as a turnkey investor before immigrating to the United States, which motivated us to create a company that prioritizes integrity and accountability.

Over the years, we've learned from our mistakes and endeavored to rectify them whenever possible, and at times as Engelo mentioned- put our hands in our own pockets to pay for them. While we cannot and WILL NOT guarantee success in every investment, I want to assure you that your experience was not due to malpractice on our part.

If we believed that you were wronged and that your losses were not simply a part of the inherent risks of investing, we would have taken responsibility and compensated you accordingly. However, we firmly believe that your experience, while unfortunate, is a valuable learning opportunity within your investment journey.

In regards to the sale of your property at a discount, it's crucial to consider market comparables…. Which Engelo kindly provided above and also you yourself can source by doing a little online due diligence. Comparable sales in your area typically range between $60,000 to $75,000. Had I been in your position, I would have conducted thorough online research to identify these comps and assessed their selling prices before engaging with a realtor.

In selling your investment property on the MLS, it's important to take an active role in the sales process and not solely rely on the advice of others… If the realtor suggested a significantly lower sale price without providing satisfactory justification or demonstrating a commitment to achieving a fair market value, I would have promptly sought alternative representation. Same goes with the appraisal… I've had to personally pay for 2nd or 3rd appraisals due to receiving one that didn't make any logical sense based off of my knowledge of the market and pulling my own comps.

Empowering oneself with knowledge and actively advocating for one's interests is paramount in any business transaction.

I understand your frustration with feeling like a victim in this situation… However I ask you to further acknowledge personal accountability and agency in the decision-making processes surrounding your own investment…

You’ve unfortunately, grossly just undersold your property, and from what I can see it is due to allowing emotions to get in the way of logic.

The fact is; you made a decision, without much question or pushback, to sell your property that’s fully renovated for $48,500… the new owner is going to rent this out within the month for $750-800/month— that’s an amazing cap rate. That or they’ll do a quick turn around and sell this property, perhaps with minor improvements such as fresh carpet or laminate, for around 65-75K.

Moving forward, I encourage you to leverage this experience as a valuable lesson within your investment journey… By adopting a more proactive and informed approach, I am confident that you can navigate future challenges much more successfully.


PS: You spoke very highly of Lonna, who is our Operations Manager for the last 8 years...meaning she's been managing the entire show in the backend (all through the time you owned your property) I am happy to pass along your compliments to her. 

Kelsey, it's a real privilege to play a role in your real estate goals in Toledo, Ohio! Your honest feedback means the world to us... Remote investing has the power to revolutionize your approach, especially when you've got a dependable team handling the day-to-day grind. And while not every renovation may be flawless, what truly counts is the functionality and profitability it brings to the table. Thanks for trusting us with your vision!

PS: You didn't like the floral wallpaper, I thought it added character!?!?  hahah...I'm fully onboard for a wallpaper shredding party, lets go! :p 

 Hmmm I wish I could have simply read a book and killed it in RE. Not realistic, but everyone has their journey and will learn in their own way. 

 Agreed :) Teamwork makes the dream work, and unless you have prior experience, as you mentioned it's not easy to build a team-- especially from afar. 

@Becca F.  I commend you for listening to your gut and and also knowing your own limitations (ie the time required to research a new market) I think from my experience-- being on both sides of the fence, a turnkey provider myself and also someone that's bought out of state, even out of country--- I would do mild research on the market I want to enter, but then I would put most of my energies into researching and getting to know the team (turnkey provider) bc regardless of the market, my thoughts are its the team that will either make or break an investment.

But it sounds like you found an alternate route, with buying a property that needs no work, in a market you are familiar with. Then it would simply come down to finding yourself a solid PM company unless you are self-managing from afar. If it's a A class rental I don't imagine you'll have to much stress here, as they usually have less risk/drama. 

I think likely it's more necessary to source a good turnkey company when you want to establish a portfolio in a B/B-/C class area, and I think most of the "horror" stories i'm getting are from investors trying to bypass turnkey companies and doing this on their own from afar. Personally, I moved to the market I wanted to invest in (Toledo) and even with being on the ground it took Engelo and I years to establish a solid team for Ohio Cashflow. And that included so much trial by fire... I can't imagine any success doing what we did from afar. 

Greetings BiggerPockets community!

As a turnkey real estate investor and owner of a property management company, I witness a persistent misunderstanding around turnkey investments. Many investors attempt to handle everything on their own, underestimating the importance of having a reliable on-the-ground team.

I receive daily calls from out-of-state investors who've experienced losses trying to learn a new market, find good deals, manage contractors, and oversee properties from thousands of miles away. I've heard numerous horror stories just this week that prompted my post here... This approach seems to be leading many investors to financial setbacks and unnecessary stress, and an overall pretty traumatic experience. 

The truth is, while turnkey real estate provides a streamlined investment process, success depends on assembling a capable local team. A reputable turnkey provider, with a strong on-the-ground presence, can guide you through the intricacies of the local market, ensuring smoother operations and better returns.

So this has made me wonder, why the recent influx of calls from out of state investors-- seeking to do it all on there own?  I recall back when we started Ohio Cashflow in 2013-- as a turnkey provider-- @Engelo Rumora and I had a brutal time building up our reputation as there was such a bad rep around turnkey operators. So i'm curious, are investors still being burnt by turnkey operators and that is why they are seeking to do it themselves, without an established team on ground? Does the risk of finding one reputable turnkey operator out-way that of; self learning a market, sourcing a good agent, title company, contractors, and management company? 

What has been your experience with managing remote real estate investments? Have you found success with managing your own curated local team?