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All Forum Posts by: David Charles Edwards

David Charles Edwards has started 1 posts and replied 27 times.

Quote from @Michael P.:

 There is plenty of middle ground. Owning 2 is significantly less headache than owning 15. 


 On this point, I'm gonna disagree,  especially in my situation where all the units are at the same complex.  I suppose I could cherry pick the best few units and keeps those (although they are really all the same) but it's just not that much more work to manage them all which is why I made that statement to begin with.  

Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
Quote from @David Charles Edwards:
Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

You have a relatively low value and rent per unit. Another path to consider is to sell them under a 1031 exchange and trade into higher-value real estate. Double value, double rent per tenant. Maybe finance 50-70% and hire PM.

I would stay in real estate, it is hedged against inflation and you can consume part of the cash flow instead of depleting equity, you can actually let the continue to grow. Personally we have long stopped buying "doors" - we want as much revenue with as few tenants as possible, so we buy higher-priced homes in the Milwaukee suburbs.

Last suggestion: look into DST's. You can 1031 into a DST and avoid taxes.


 Dang,  that almost feels like an insult lol.....   "low value and rent per unit"....  Ive done some 1031 research but the fees and hoops seem high to me.  I'll look into DSTs. thank for the Tips

Hey, I said "relatively low"! lol - definitely did not mean to insult, but show you an option.

Managing a tenant/unit takes the same amount of effort, regardless of how much the rent is. Actually, you typically have more headaches with lower-rent tenants.

So why would you not want to manage half the units for the same revenue?


 I see what you're saying and if we are going to stay IN to actively management of our properties,  we will just keep what we have.  They are nearby, all at the same complex, and we have refined the formula pretty well over time.  I'm mostly exploring options that get me OUT of the day to day.  Turn over to PM, 1031 into something I don't have to be involved with, or cash out and deal with the recapture and capital gains and move the money into fixed income.

Quote from @Allan C.:

@David Charles Edwards to reinforce your preference to not move around a lot, making your rentals your primary residence won’t get you that far. If you rented the property first, you’ll have to pro-rate the gain based on non-qualified use. For example, if you rented for 25 years and then lived in it for 2 years, the capital gain exclusion you’ll be eligible for is 2/25 of your gain. You’re also on the hook for depreciation recapture, which is likely larger than your cap gains.

You can consider 1031 into a DST to simplify your transactions. Then you can 1031 your DST into a single property and figure what you want to do with that property.

 I've looked into 1031 a couple times and I was always surprised at the fees involved but I suppose its still a fraction of the depreciation recapture and capital gains.

Quote from @Paul Azad:

Those Annuities don't sound great, 6.4% yield if just you on the policy and only 5.8% if you add your wife to inherit the policy if you die someday (sorry but high likelihood, nothing lasts forever)

consider as recc above, find a few good syndicators with several upcoming deals you can identify within 45 days of the sale of your condos (sell all 15 as a package to some investor), then invest as a TIC, tenant in common, with one syndication deal, there won't be any fees, then make sure it's a longer term 10 year at least investment, then keep rolling until death. Then kids get the step-up. I recc NNN-multi-tenant large shopping centers that due cost segregation analysis at purchase to get maximum depreciation up front. CRE retail has good fundamental outlook next 5-10 years due to lack of supply. This segment has been big picture stable last 100 years. Also, multifamily (now down 30%) but wait 1-2 more years for massive new supply to be absorbed. I just invested in 3 different Data centers, they are too high risk for most people to consider, especially in retirement. Industrial is great too, long term, but a little overpriced still for now.

or sell, pay the taxes, invest in VOO, get 8-10% next 30 years, or invest in REITs, get 10-12% next 30 years

or buy MUNIs, i'm getting 5% tax free, which is an effective yield of  7.94% for part of my emergency fund

If you die 1 day , 1 yr, 1 decade after you sign an Annuity, they keep all your money, your wife/kids get nothing, unless you add them, but then the returns do go way down and they were low to begin with, Remember the Annuity company is investing in VOO and last 20 years got 13% a year, (long term 8.4% since 1801) they pay you 6 and keep the rest, good luck brother :)


 There is a lot to unpack in your post and Im not familiar with most of the options you listed so I'll do some homework.  Thank you for the ideas.

@Jay HinrichsI love the 250k  500k I suspect though with what sounds like 150k and under houses this might not really play out.. And I suspect the OP and his wife probably dont want to move into one of their rentals .. just speculation..

The other thing is to sell the portfolio over a few years and be the bank.  with todays rates one could get7 to 10% interest on that long term and then defer your Cap gains over a course of years.

 Nah,  we wouldn’t be interested in playing the primary residence shell game.


I like the “be the bank” idea and we have done that with other properties in the past but it always blows up over time.  There is a reason those people couldn’t get financed so I wouldn’t do it again.  We’ve learned most of the lessons the hard way.  I’ve rented to people with every sob story out there and rented to people with poor credit.  I don’t listen to any of that crap any more.


 I have the same setup as you. Don't overthink it. Maximum liability coverage and a good umbrella policy is going to take care of 99.9% of your needs and exposure. As far as your kids, that's easy too - set up a trust and move everything into the trust. 

Real estate is best served by holding it forever, at least the way our current tax system is designed. 

I have all 15 of these insured with Erie under a single policy which has been great since I only get ONE bill ONCE a year opposed to the mounds of paperwork I used to get. I think it's 2 million per claim and 4 or 6 million per year in total liability. Then I have a personal umbrella for another 2 million. We require tenants to carry renters insurance as well. I would love to hear some strategies you hear to limit exposure and protect assets. I went this route a long time ago after a close friend who's a lawyer told me to save the time and money on LLC's and accounting and keep everything in your name with a large cheap umbrella. If something really bad happens, the lawyers would "Pierce the corporate veil" of those LLC's to get to your assets anyway. IF I turn things over to a PM, I wanna reduce my exposure at the same time.

Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

You have a relatively low value and rent per unit. Another path to consider is to sell them under a 1031 exchange and trade into higher-value real estate. Double value, double rent per tenant. Maybe finance 50-70% and hire PM.

I would stay in real estate, it is hedged against inflation and you can consume part of the cash flow instead of depleting equity, you can actually let the continue to grow. Personally we have long stopped buying "doors" - we want as much revenue with as few tenants as possible, so we buy higher-priced homes in the Milwaukee suburbs.

Last suggestion: look into DST's. You can 1031 into a DST and avoid taxes.


 Dang,  that almost feels like an insult lol.....   "low value and rent per unit"....  Ive done some 1031 research but the fees and hoops seem high to me.  I'll look into DSTs. thank for the Tips

Quote from @JD Martin:
Quote from @David Charles Edwards:


I'm not referring to a HELOC, since you normally don't get those on investment properties - I'm talking about straight up mortgages on the property. Read up on equity harvesting here and elsewhere, but yes you get the general idea in your last paragraph - cash out, let the PMs deal with the properties, rinse and repeat every 15 (or 20, or 30) years. Yes, you have to open up a little bit from the Dave Ramsey mindset which works great for people on the edge but not very well for investors or those with money.

Even at 8.5%, as long as everything gets paid for it's largely irrelevant. If rates fall significantly, refinance. Now if you don't need or want the extra income, then you can just leave thing as is, but then there's also little compelling reason to sell and take the tax hit. 

After 25+ years of acquiring and managing our rental properties,  the "compelling reason" to sell is just freedom, peace of mind, reduced liability, and guaranteed income from an annuity.  I suppose I need to at least try the Property management route first before I cash out and walk away.  I've still got another year before the last one graduates high school and we are empty nesters.

Another wrinkle to consider.  I own all these properties in my name.  Rather than setup LLCs for each property and deal with the added expenses and book keeping,  we just file them on schedule E and I have a butt load of liability coverage.

If I keep them,  I might want to restructure as part of the refinancing to reduce my exposure and maybe even set them up so the kids could take over without having to be actively involved.  I'm not sure how that would be done.



 I have the same setup as you. Don't overthink it. Maximum liability coverage and a good umbrella policy is going to take care of 99.9% of your needs and exposure. As far as your kids, that's easy too - set up a trust and move everything into the trust. 

Real estate is best served by holding it forever, at least the way our current tax system is designed. 


 So is there a way to do all these things at once?  turn over to PM, move into trust, set up equity harvest.  Esentially walk away from the day to day and cash out refi.



I'm not referring to a HELOC, since you normally don't get those on investment properties - I'm talking about straight up mortgages on the property. Read up on equity harvesting here and elsewhere, but yes you get the general idea in your last paragraph - cash out, let the PMs deal with the properties, rinse and repeat every 15 (or 20, or 30) years. Yes, you have to open up a little bit from the Dave Ramsey mindset which works great for people on the edge but not very well for investors or those with money.

Even at 8.5%, as long as everything gets paid for it's largely irrelevant. If rates fall significantly, refinance. Now if you don't need or want the extra income, then you can just leave thing as is, but then there's also little compelling reason to sell and take the tax hit. 

After 25+ years of acquiring and managing our rental properties,  the "compelling reason" to sell is just freedom, peace of mind, reduced liability, and guaranteed income from an annuity.  I suppose I need to at least try the Property management route first before I cash out and walk away.  I've still got another year before the last one graduates high school and we are empty nesters.

Another wrinkle to consider.  I own all these properties in my name.  Rather than setup LLCs for each property and deal with the added expenses and book keeping,  we just file them on schedule E and I have a butt load of liability coverage.

If I keep them,  I might want to restructure as part of the refinancing to reduce my exposure and maybe even set them up so the kids could take over without having to be actively involved.  I'm not sure how that would be done.


Quote from @Jeremy Russell:
Quote from @David Charles Edwards:
Quote from @JD Martin:
Quote from @David Charles Edwards:
Quote from @Benjamin Aaker:
Are you possibly undervaluing your properties? You are in North Carolina and have 15 worth 100k each? That seems pretty low, though I don't know the market.
I know you said all in or all out, but what about getting a full service property manager so you don't have all the headaches of being a landlord? This would satisfy your annuity need, though would be variable of course.

 Retail on these condos is around $125k ea.  I'm looking at roughly $100k net after commissions and capital gains.

We may turn over to a property management company but it costs 8% off the double and probably double the repair budget since you use their guys.  Here are the options we've considered.


1.  Keep until we die and let the kids inherit on a step up basis. headache but built in inflation protection, property appreciation, and tax benefits.  This is the smart thing to do but I've been doing this 25 years and I'm tired of worrying about this crap when I'm off shore trying to catch flounder. 

2.  Keep the units but turn over to a management company 8% off the top plus roughly double my normal repair budget.  relieves some of the headache.  reduces net income to roughly the same as a lifetime annuity.

3.  Sell them all over a period of 4-6 years. Put the money into fixed income vehicles of various sorts and walk away and spend more time drinking wine and catching fish.  Much less inflation protection. Big capital gains expense

4.  seller finance I explored this in depth a couple years ago but it didn't really save that much in capital gains and all the state taxes are due in year one and all the depreciation recapture is due up front. not enough of an upside.

5.  Primary residence shell game this might work for the first few units but would take too long for all of them and the hassle of changing addresses every two years to fake my primary residence for the IRS sounds like a hassle.

6. Borrow against one property every year on a 15 year note and put them all under property management, or borrow against all 15 all at once. Aim to cash in 80% LTV on each property every year, and in 15 years you will have the first one free and clear again and can do it all over. Just make sure the rents cover the PM+Note+Maint/cap expenses. Then you get to access all your capital, pay no capital gains, and still keep the properties as a hedge against inflation. 
I don’t understand your logic here.  They are all paid for already.

I think he is referring to a HELOC, but ultimately it is a way to avoid or defer capital gains taxes as the interest rate on the HELOC would be lower than your capital gains tax. You're getting the equity, 80-90% per property per loan, upfront and trading the capital gains for interest which is deductible.

 I kinda get that.  Trading capital gains expense which is 15% for interest expense which is currently around 8.5% The part that I don’t quite get is WHY?  Im not looking to expand the portfolio.  I’m looking to retire so I can travel, fish, drink wine, and generally have less worry and responsibility.   If I turn the units over to PM and borrow against them,  what would I do with the money?  Beating 8.5% would be pretty hard on a regular basis. I guess I’ve had this Dave Ramsey mindset for a long time which is why we are debt free.  Also,  wouldn’t it make more sense to borrow against my primary residence?  Lower rates and mortgage deduction if I itemize (which I typically don’t).  Just so I’m clear…. Borrow the money and invest however I choose…..  turn over to PM….  Let PM and accountants deal with all the work…..  let the rentals pay for themselves over again over time.