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All Forum Posts by: David Cheng

David Cheng has started 2 posts and replied 29 times.

@Kaushik Sarkar

Im in a similar boat. But the key here is to have a desirable property that will cash flow. 

I haven't seen a desirable property that will cash flow in the neighborhoods that I like (Plano/Frisco/Allen) in over 4 years. May be others will enlighten me.

Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

You might go to the planning and zoning office IN person, don't call, and talk to planning staff.  Just run it by them and see what they think.  Take pictures printed and your current plat.  I think they would tell you informally if they think it is allowable or not.  Then I'm thinking you need to hire a surveyor to do the replat for you and submit.  I'm thinking 60-90 days.   I think things are getting better in Dallas.  I also think there is some kind of rule that once you formally submit the replat they have to act within 30 days or it is automatically approved.  Lots of uproar along similar lines in CA.  Dallas seems to be moving towards some more liberal zoning ideas, so maybe they will approve.

I still think financing might be an issue, before Covid was 4+ years ago now.  Lots of condo financing before that, and plenty of issues have gone on since then.  Think Florida rule changes after the Palm Beach/Surfside collapse,  think Dallas freeze lawsuits, think about the parking garage collapse at the Renaissance.  See any condos being built around Dallas?  There are some, but very very few.   You might try to track down some local lenders who are experts in condo lending to see if they would finance them.  It's not just about Freddie and Fannie rules, they probably also have some overlays as well that are more restrictive.  Townhomes might be a different story if the dirt is also separately sold vs common to the 4 units.

I'm no expert on lending though and probably plenty of people here have more expertise, but I've sold a lot of condos and townhomes in Dallas in lots of different developments, so just telling you some of what I have seen and experienced.  I can tell you it seems like every day people say they can finance some of these things, and when they get down to it, they can't perform.  Even some really great experienced lenders can't get them done.  That's condos, not townhomes.


Solid advice about zoning. 

why not call? 

Quote from @David Krulac:

@Bruce Lynn @Jay Hurst On the 17 th condos that we did there was no problem getting financing, 15 were sold to owner occupants and 2 were sold to one investor. we did not do owner financing on any condo project we did and everybody got institutional financing including conventional, FHA and VA. In the existing building project all condos were sold to owner occupants.

This is good to hear as well! Thank you for your info!

I'm leaning towards re-platting unless I find city of Dallas can't re-platt very quickly. But we will see. I am having a lot less hesitation on doing condo association. 

if you don't mind me asking. When did you sell these condos? 
Quote from @Jay Hurst:
Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

This is a tough one.

The trick with turning them into condos, will that it will be super tough to sell the first 3 if not all on a 4 unit development if people need financing. You would likely have to owner finance them in my experience to sell them separately.  Typical lending rules are that one person cannot own more than 20% of the units and developer cannot own more than 50%, you probably get around the 20% rule once you sell 3.  There are more issues than this, reserves would be another.  You need budgets and financials, so probably have to pay to get that done.  Plus more and more lenders don't want to lend on condos.

I'm thinking individual townhomes would be a better option, but don't think you can do that with shared roof and sprinkler.   Are they on one water meter or 4 separate?  That could be an issue as well.

All kinds of strange things could happen when you sell 3 and own the 4th. Now you don't have control. They could pass a new resolution not to allow rentals, or no pets in rentals, or no section 8 in rentals, or raise the HOA dues insanely high for a year until you sell it to fund better reserves for themselves at your expense. Probably crazier things have happened.

Replatting would be the job of a surveyor, not your realtor.

I think it is easier to fix your rolodex.  How much maintenance do these require?

If it is just getting too much to handle for you, I understand.  A great PM is going to cost you 10% and your repairs will also likely cost more.   Just a couple of examples.  Tenant calls you to say thermostat not working.  You do it.  $5 for batteries and whatever your time costs.  PM does it and that will be anywhere from $75-$150.  Sure PMs have better rolodexes, but that doesn't mean you will pay less for maintenance.  Chances are you pay more.  You'll shop for a AC unit replacement, you might go with the guy who can save you $2000 if you can wait until the weekend to get it done.  PM isn't going to wait for that.  They're getting it done and tacking their 15% upcharge on it.

It's just one of those dilemmas you face as you grow and get more units.   Do you turn over to PM or do it yourself and how do you simplify things as you move forward.

Also trading real estate for stocks is not just a way to diversify.  One thing you have to think about is risk.  I consider real estate low risk.  Stock market....you can loose 25% or more of your money in one day.   I think it would be pretty rare you could do that in real estate.  Plenty of great stocks have had big drops like this.

While your returns might be lower, sounds like it might just be better to sell this as a 4plex that perhaps it is and not turn it into condos or townhomes.  That probably means selling it to another investor at investor pricing.

Another option is turn over some of your duties.  Can your spouse help, kids help, relatives, one of the young people trying to get started here on BP?  Could one of your tenants help in exchange for reduced rent?   Could you hire one handyman that does it all?

Good luck.  Let us know what you end up doing?

@Bruce Lynn  @David Cheng

 The good news here is the condo projects that are 2-4 units are exempt from the project review that trips up so many condo's for conventional  financing. 

https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/sel/b4-2.1-02/waiver-pro...

Niice! Thank you! This is very relevant in my considerations! 

@Bruce Lynn

i think may be I was not precise in my description. These are townhouses built side by side, sharing a firewall in-between. The wall goes up all the way and the attic was individually divided as well. They were meant to be sold off as individual units. I don't think the builder ever got around to dividing it into individual deeds. 

The roof is on the same slope. But I don't see any reason why they can't be divided.

You have any experience in re-platting the lot? 

how long does that usually take? 

@Bruce Lynn

Thank you for the reply, I was hoping you would chime in!! 4 individual water and electric meters.

The point about individual townhomes and sprinklers. Don't most townhomes share roofs with another unit?

The maintenance is not that bad to be honest. I get called about once every two months or for all 4 units. The last one is replacing a hot water heater that was there since 2007, which was done, $3k for an electric water heater install. How badly did I get ripped off?

The issue is that it does eat into my free time, which is very precious to me (I also don't have a lot of it).

If I want to exit I guess I can look for an institutional buyer at around 5% cap? Feels like this buyer pool dried up recently with the interest rates rising?

Quote from @David Krulac:

@Diego A.  I have been managing and owning rentals for a long time, i used to manage 100%, now 50%.  On the 17 units, I would have liked to keep, but with all other obligations, could not at that time.  The legal cost to condo was in the range of $5,000 to $10,000, versus the subdivision costs which would have been maybe $50,000.   

When was your condo forming? 

My RE lawyer quoted a $35k cost to form the condo association. 

Quote from @David Krulac:

We saved lots of money and time, by condo-ing a 17 townhouse complex as well as condo-ing and existing building built around 1900. The condo-ing did require condo docs compliant with state laws, containing all the cluses required by law. In both of those situation the land remained whole as one tract essentially owned by the condo association (HOA) while the individual units were sold to individual owners. At the 17 TH there was one owner that bought 2 as investments, but all the others were individual owners, mostly owner occupied and just a few landlords owned. Besides being easier, on the 17 units there was a driveway and 36 parking lot owned by the HOA, that if there was a land subdivision would require other things. For example the driveway would be a "public municipal" road and have to be built to "road standards" such as 8' base and 8" pavement. A private driveway doesn't have to meet those standards, but also doesn't get public snow removal or public repair. Those responsibilities become HOA responsibilities. Also trash removal needs to be privately secured, as public carrier will only pick up along public roads. Another responsibility for the HOA. But the developmental costs were many thousands less and the time to get approval less. These two were done in two different states under two different state development rules, both much easier. We have done many other subdivisions involving up to 100 acres, but there were the easiest. In the second state, the municipality by law had no authority to change anything and the one meeting with them was advisory only. After that one meeting the engineered plan was recorded at the courthouse and we could sell individual units. All of those units went to owner occupants. Covod-ization versus land subdivision, its no contest imho.

David Krulac, Bigger Pockets Podcast #82 Guest 

Thanks for the awesome reply! I'm lucky that all 4 units face public road so common road/area would be a minimum/parking is right in front and already divided. The only thing they share is fire sprinklers and roof. 

Question regarding the condo association: Who is managing the HOA/condo association now?

Quote from @Michael McVety:
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Michael McVety:
Quote from @Jacob Stevenson:

What is the key to finding a great property management company?  How do you vet them?  


 Hi Jacob.

I will give you a couple of major thoughts being a professional property manager for 25 years.

1)  Select a company that does annual property management only (as opposed to a real estate company that does sales and property management).

2)  Make sure your agent/ property manager does it full time (as opposed to looking after your property after they have taken care of all their sales first)

3)  The management company should be a active member of NARPM or IREM.  That does not mean they write a check to get the "logo" to put on their website and look good (I have seen this a lot in my area sadly).  They should have designations of education and experience as an example.

That will put you in a very select company right there and you should be good to go!


 what is the difference between annual PM and PM (meant PM with annual) ??


 Hi Carlos.

Property Management is divided into a couple of areas though people often refer to it as "property management".  Most people just use the term but there is association management, apartment/ Multi-family management and then property management.

For instance, in Florida, you need a license to practice Association Management (in most cases) and a real estate license to practice property management (in most cases).  You do not need to have a license to manage an apartment community.

Property management can then be broken down into "annual" property management (normally a unit without furniture), a seasonal rental management (such as 2 weeks to several months up to 6 months) and then vacation rentals (sometimes for the weekend, a week, etc..).

Each state has its different rules and licensing for each area of property management (annual, seasonal and vacation) as well as the different areas of management (association, apartment and property).

I hope that helps.


 This is immensely helpful. Thank you. 

I have around 8-9 doors, small fish in a big pond. Would you just start cold calling in the phone book? or is it helpful to start on the NARPM and IREM directory?

What are the usual cost for these type of good property managers in major metroplexes? 10% rental revenue?

We have 4 townhouses east of 75 & Haskell (West of Ross), Built ~ 2007. Good condition, 100% occupied. Monthly rent in the ~$1.5/sqft range. I'm currently also the property manager. I'm a professional in another unrelated field and the time I spend to manage the rental properties are not worth my hourly. Also, our portfolio is very heavily concentrated in RE, diversification is seen as a positive at this point. 

I'm exploring several long term strategies:


-Exit:

The townhouses share common walls in the middle. The legal description of the lot states these 4 townhouses are 1 legal property (they are NOT platted as 4 separated properties).

The realtor I use to appraise the property claim that I would maximize the sales price if I had the re-platted as 4 different legal properties. However, he offered no assistance on the re-platting process. 

I spoke to my RE Lawyer, who claimed that re-platting would take much longer than just forming a condo association and selling each individual townhouse as a condo. 

-Long term hold

My rolodex isn't that great for trades (Plumber, Electrician, Roofer, Landscape, or Property Manager). I may have 2 or 3 on that list (no property manager that I trust) of trades that I would trust and keep long term to work on my other properties. This results in me often driving to the property to assess the problem myself and paying a premium to get the work done right. 

I could just get better at establishing relationships with the trades and hope that my cost to manage will go down in the future. Or I may get a trust worthy property manager, but that cost almost would lower the long term returns to below the S&P 500 indexes. 

My questions to the hivemind:

- Have you ever had to re-plat 1 property with 1 legal description into 4 different properties? Any insight on this process or forming condo association would be helpful.
- What would you do if you were in my situation? I feel like this is a good time in the market cycle to exit and diversify? But I may not be as in tune with the market trends as the rest of the professionals.