Skip to content
×
PRO
Pro Members Get Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
$0
TODAY
$69.00/month when billed monthly.
$32.50/month when billed annually.
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
Already a Pro Member? Sign in here
Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties. Try BiggerPockets PRO.
x
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Darryl H.

Darryl H. has started 2 posts and replied 11 times.

Quote from @Mike Hasson:
Sounds like you were able to get things prioritized and put a plan together. I'm glad we were able to help; that's what we're here for!

I recently did the same thing on a project, and put an open shelf instead of cabinets. Let us know how yours works out!

 I was trying to google search for an image exactly like this! I had the floating shelf idea in my head but could not picture how it would actually look. I might actually move forward with this floating shelf version instead, thanks again!! 

@Scott Mac Thanks, this layout looks amazing honestly but will probably put me over budget. I deciding on leaving the stove there by itself, with just a wall mount range hood without cabinets. 

@Bruce Woodruff Yep looks like moving the door bell (if needed) wont be a problem. Both GFCIs and handrails will be getting installed now too, thanks!

@Mike Hasson Yes it does look like comps support having a central AC (Phong Bui also suggested this too).  I might be delaying the AC install for a couple months just because this would be a lot for me to spend right now. Regarding the extension cord...after a quick Google search I realized where I am going wrong with that, I am still leaning a bunch here haha. I will be installing an electric stove with the ductless range hood, and a new outlet for the range hood. 

Thanks @Patricia Steiner for answering my long list of questions! We are expecting for this unit to be ready by the end of month, and renovation for the 2nd unit starts after they tenants move out. This first renovation is really stressful to be honest...but I would imagine all the other renovations moving forward to be much easier. 

I will make sure the GFCI outlets are installed, and washer/dryer hookups are already available. I appreciate the AC advice too, I am hoping the estimates are still within my budget. 

I did a quick check on Zillow and lots of the sold properties either do not have a range hood, or they had outdated kitchens with range hoods. Based off of this, I do not think a range hood is necessary. I appreciate the help! 


I am still open to any additional comments if anyone else could help out with these final touches I have to decide on soon :)

Some other things I am thinking about too, please let me know what you think:

The property has central heating, and I am considering adding AC. My contractor is working on a quote, but she said the conversion to AC might be expensive. I am leaning towards still installing AC as this should help with the appraisal and also keep my tenants happy. 

The inspector listed GFCI outlets in the kitchen/bathroom as an optional upgrade. Are GFCI outlets generally recommended? I would imagine this would not cost that much anyways. 

Would you recommend installing step railings for 3-5 steps outside the front+back doors? Maybe adding railings are a good idea just to avoid any potential injuries. 

Happy New Year to everyone! I recently closed on my first home purchase last November. It is a duplex in North Linden (growing C neighborhood) and I plan to cashout refi towards the end of the year. I am doing a full cosmetic renovation - interior paint, new bathroom, new kitchen. 

I have the option right now to try to add a ductless range hood. The attached picture shows the range is in a corner by itself with the doorbell above it directly in the middle. This sounds like it could be an expensive installation. I might need to relocate the door bell and need a new outlet up there. Maybe we can run an extension cord behind the wall down to the lower outlet.

I was thinking a range hood with a new floating cabinet could work there and a hole can be cut to place the cabinet over the door bell. My contractor said a new cabinet might not match the other cabinets we painted over. I also see wall mount range hoods like . I think this would look better, but it would require the door bell to be relocated. 

Would mismatched cabinets affect my appraisal value? Is this worth the additional costs for relocating the door bell and a new outlet? Maybe a range hood would look awkward in this corner, would that affect my appraisal value? I am really just prioritizing the appraisal value, I would appreciate any of your thoughts on this decision!   :)

Quote from @Steven Foster Wilson:
Quote from @Darryl H.:

Hello! I am first time real estate investor from California. I am looking to BRRRR in Columbus OH, in North Linden or any similar C+/B- neighborhood. My budget will be around $200K saved up within the next year to finance a cash offer and rehab.

I am planning for a 3 bedroom SFR, cash offer of 125K-150K, and rehab costs of 20K-40K. Including closing & holding costs I can be at ~170K all in, and I am guessing around 200K ARV (maybe a higher ARV? I need to get some more opinions on this too). Does this all sound reasonable so far?

With a 75% LTV I would have to leave ~20K in the deal. I think I would be okay with this since it is half the down payment of a $200K property, I would have 50K in total equity right from the start, and I get a fully refurbished property. Minimal cash flow is acceptable for me because it seems like appreciation and increased rent could work well for me long term. I also do not plan on quitting my W2 job any time soon.

Are my expectations with BRRRR too low here? I already spoke with an agent & contractor that have been super helpful with all my questions. I just cannot get the numbers to work out to fully recoup all the money I would put in. Should I just consider a different market where I have a better chance to recover more of my cash invested?


I think Columbus is a great BRRRR market!

My first BRRRRR was $300k, put $50k into it, refinanced, and got $90k back. I just refinanced again and got another $50k and it still cash flows $1800/month. Second BRRRRR cost $160k, put $55k into it, refinanced, and got me just under $200k back and cash flows $2000/month.

Currently working on my 5th BRRRR in the city!

Maybe you need to be looking at some off market deals? Are you asking your agent to check your numbers? https://www.calculator.net/ren... I like to use this calculator to run my numbers


Yep! All the numbers I was hypothetically using were from my agent/contractor. One thing that makes me nervous is that the rent estimates my agent provides are usually higher than when I reach out to property managers for rent estimates. My agent does send me comps that show a comparable rent, however one property manager actually did send me a comp that showed they were struggling at the higher price range too. This makes me nervous because the margins are really tight already considering I will have to leave $20K+ in the deal, and that I am barely cash flow positive after including all expenses/repairs/capex/etc. 

Did you work with property managers too? Did you feel like they were too conservative with rent estimates? I understand where they are coming from because they are trying to avoid overpromising estimated rents. 

Quote from @Steven Goldman:
Quote from @Darryl H.:

Hello! I am first time real estate investor from California. I am looking to BRRRR in Columbus OH, in North Linden or any similar C+/B- neighborhood. My budget will be around $200K saved up within the next year to finance a cash offer and rehab.

I am planning for a 3 bedroom SFR, cash offer of 125K-150K, and rehab costs of 20K-40K. Including closing & holding costs I can be at ~170K all in, and I am guessing around 200K ARV (maybe a higher ARV? I need to get some more opinions on this too). Does this all sound reasonable so far?

With a 75% LTV I would have to leave ~20K in the deal. I think I would be okay with this since it is half the down payment of a $200K property, I would have 50K in total equity right from the start, and I get a fully refurbished property. Minimal cash flow is acceptable for me because it seems like appreciation and increased rent could work well for me long term. I also do not plan on quitting my W2 job any time soon.

Are my expectations with BRRRR too low here? I already spoke with an agent & contractor that have been super helpful with all my questions. I just cannot get the numbers to work out to fully recoup all the money I would put in. Should I just consider a different market where I have a better chance to recover more of my cash invested?

Hi Daryl:  it appears you have put a lot of thought into your BRRRR process. I have several suggestions that you may consider. First, a 30k spread is inadequate to succeed in a BRRRR purchase. Most of the fix and flip lenders will make you put a great deal more cash into the deal if the spread is that thin. Second, on a thin spread if some of the challenges that @Darryl Hua mentioned materialize you do not have enough of a margin to have a successful exit strategy. I suggest that you look for a minimum 50k spread. You should also know the maximum LTV on the out based on the DSCR. This will change as rates change but it will give you a good sense of how much you are going to get out on the refinance. 

Finally, it is not a good time to buy a listed property from the multi list and than rehab. and refinance. You must work the off market deals, sheriff sales, short sales, internet listings and foreclosures. If you pay market price than you will have a tough time executing out in a advantageous fashion. Good luck.

Thanks Steven. I will factor in a 50K spread to my numbers. I was hoping on doing a cash offer to skip having to deal with lender fees twice and to lower my holding costs. My agent did find one off market deal, so I am hoping she will be able to get some more later when I can save up enough cash. 
Quote from @Leo R.:

@Darryl H.  I've been to Columbus many times, but I'm not super familiar with property values there (so I can't speak to whether your numbers are accurate...the actual numbers could be a lot worse, or a lot better).

However, I do see a few issues to consider...

First off, I want to be clear: I'm not saying that you shouldn't pursue your plan (and, since I don't know the numbers in Columbus, for all I know, your plan could be a home run). However, what you described brings up some concerns that you'll want to resolve before moving forward.

You mentioned that cashflow is not very important to you, and it sounds like your plan hinges partly on future appreciation and future rent growth. Personally, I think this is not advisable--especially for a new investor.  Assuming that you don't have a massive stack of cash and assets that put you in a position where this property could completely fail and it wouldn't affect you much, planning on appreciation and rent growth is, essentially, speculation.   At the end of the day, NOBODY knows what the market will look like in the future, and anyone who says they do is full of it.  Sure, we can make educated guesses, but these days there are about as many valid arguments predicting a market crash as there are valid arguments for flattening, as there are valid arguments predicting continued growth.

What's your plan if property values flatten (or go down), especially at the moment that you're trying to refinance the property? What's your plan if rent doesn't increase, or rents decrease? Although inflation might push rents up, it is not a guarantee that rents will increase--lots of things can occur at the macro and local levels that could flatten or decrease rents (e.g.; rent control legislation or Gov. housing affordability initiatives, a crash in house values that allows renters to buy, a big-money developer builds a luxury apartment building next door and is able to to rent units that are A+ for only $100 more than your C or B grade property, etc., etc.).

New investors have come up in an era where values have only gone up, and plenty of gurus and their followers have drunk the kool-aid and believe that values only go in one direction (up). The reality is, values and rents can--and do--crash. (for instance, Vegas in '09, Detroit since the '90s, etc., etc.). Some downturns are temporary, but some downturns are permanent. For instance, between 2000 and 2020, Detroit lost roughly the population of Pittsburgh...think about that for a moment--imagine that in the course of 20 years, Pittsburgh literally disappeared from the map and had a population of 0 (because that's essentially what happened). Needless to say, it's unlikely that there will ever be a full recovery. Obviously, I don't think this will occur in the near future in Columbus, but the point is: if your plan hinges on future rent growth and/or future appreciation, you're speculating.

As has been mentioned on many BP podcasts, cashflow is similar to your "defense", in that it helps protect you from losing the property if property values crash, and appreciation is similar to your "offense", in that it's where real wealth can (potentially) be built. Because of this, cashflow is usually essential for any beginning investor who doesn't have a massive stack of cash and assets to fall back on if things go south. Unless you have that massive stack of cash and assets, it's probably not advisable to buy a property with insufficient cashflow and an expectation of future appreciation and rent growth (particularly right at a clear turning point in the market, and especially when using the BRRRR strategy that hinges on successful Re-fi'ing at a moment when rates are increasing at a historic pace).

Because rates have increased, and are all but guaranteed to increase more, your BRRR financial models need to include worst-case-scenario rates (take a look at the rates they had in the late '70s and '80s!). If your model doesn't pencil out with those worst-case-scenario rates, then it's probably not an advisable deal (particularly for a new investor with limited resources).

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't pursue your BRRRR plans (in fact, I'd advise anyone to learn about BRRRR'ing and real estate investing, and if someone has an investment plan that pencils out, I'd say go for it!). I'm just saying: before you put your money on the line, it's pretty important that you factor the aforementioned issues into your financial models.

Hopefully that's useful info.

Good luck out there!


Thanks for the extremely detailed response Leo! This is helpful. I should have been more clear, so with vacancy/repairs/capex all set to 5% each of rent per month for a total of 15% the numbers still barely cash flow up to $50/month. So I was thinking worst case scenario I would just have a tiny profit each month, but maybe I am not being conservative enough here. I figured with a complete rehab in a decent neighborhood, repairs/capex will not be as significant and it was conservative to cash flow positive including those expenses. Would you recommend new investors to expect more cash flow off a BRRRR even after including vacancy/repairs/capex, let's say around $100 per month instead?

Quote from @Ashley Cross:

Columbus is a great market to Brrr because it gives a good mix of cash flow and appreciation. I’ve done a few Brrrs here in Columbus and from experience it will be very difficult to keep your renovation costs in the budget you provided. Honestly, it’ll be hard to keep renovation costs in any budget with prices rising so rapidly. 


If you do not mind me asking, how much would you budget for renovation? 

Is it reasonable to find a fixer upper for 125-150K?