All Forum Posts by: Dana Holland

Thanks all for the replies.  Yes, we do have a move in inspection report, so that is good. 

At what point is something our responsibility vs. theirs?  For example the move in inspection notes the condition of sinks, faucets, tubs, toilets, plumbing.  If the plumbing isn't working well anymore or appliances don't work for example, wouldn't those be things we would have to fix for them anyway?  Or is it if it's something that we can argue was caused by unreasonable use?  (Seems tricky to prove anyway).

@Will Barnard, yes in the end I may be worried over nothing, but you haven't met my tenants.  I've never met people like this in my life.  I just need to make sure I'm doing as much CYA as I possibly can!

@Brianne H., @Max T., @Paul Ronto

We have a tenant who is moving out at the end of the month. Long story short, they have been very high maintenance since they moved in 8 months ago.  They have borderline harassed contractors we have sent to the house (pool service, landscaper, etc.) and we have caught them in several lies (verified).  The big one we unfortunately found out about after they moved in was that they broke their previous lease agreement even though they wrote on their rental application with us that they had never broken a lease.  Yes, we should have known this before they moved in and yes, we should have done a better job screening them but that's all water under the bridge now. 

They were supposed to stay until next May, but with the way they were treating us and all of our contractors we were really not wanting them to stay that long.  We emailed them and gave them the option of getting out of the lease early without penalty and luckily they took it.  In their email accepting that offer they stated that they want to be present for the move out inspection as they expect to get a full refund of their security deposit.  We have no problem letting them be there for the inspection if they wish, but just wondering how to best approach the situation since we have a tenuous relationship and there isn't much trust from either side.  We don't want to feel rushed with them being there.  We have the feeling they may ask us to sign something on the spot guaranteeing a full refund, but we don't want to do that (unless we are obligated to, which we aren't sure about yet). 

What is the best way to handle the inspection to ensure there isn't any hidden damage that we wouldn't uncover on a visual inspection?  Do people sometimes hire a handyman or other professional to check everything out?  I should add that this is our first time being landlords (obviously due to the mistakes we made up front!), so we don't have any experience with this yet.  Thanks for any tips!

@Nathan Gesner

I agree with what both of you are saying and yes I realize that this might not hold water in court. Regardless I don't think I'd even want to go that route. 

My concern though is that if I do what each of you suggested and call them on it and give them notice to leave, is there some way they may turn it around and try to say it is landlord harassment? 

@Nathan Gesner

Lesson 1 has definitely been noted from this experience!  We thought we did a good job screening them but in retrospect we should have been much more thorough. 

The application does say this:

"False information given above shall entitle owner to 1)reject this application, 2)Retain administrative fee/holding deposit, 3)Terminate applicant(s) subsequent right of occupancy.

So given that I would think I'm covered?  The wild card may be getting the previous landlord to give a written statement saying they broke the lease. 

Good idea on the 30 day notice.  I may consult an attorney first to make sure I won't do something that they can turn around on me.  They are the type to do that.  Thanks again for the tips!

@Mindy Jensen Thanks for the reply.  They have 13 months left.  If it were only a few months I'd just let it go, but it's a long time to have to keep putting up with them.  I'm not sure there are any other lies on the application that would be grounds for kicking them out but they do lie to us on a consistent basis about various things, thus the headache. 

We have tenants that for various reasons we would love to get rid of if we could.  I was just able to get a hold of a previous landlord who told me that they broke their lease agreement with them, however on the rental application they checked "no" where it asks if they ever broke a lease. 

Per my state's tenant landlord act, it says:

"Except as provided in this chapter, if there is a material noncompliance by the tenant with the rental agreement, including material falsification of the information provided on the rental application, the landlord may deliver a written notice to the tenant specifying the acts and omissions constituting the breach and that the rental agreement will terminate upon a date not less than ten days after receipt of the notice if the breach is not remedied in ten days. For the purposes of this section, material falsification shall include the following untrue or misleading information about the: 1. Number of occupants in the dwelling unit, pets, income of prospective tenant, social security number and current employment listed on the application or lease agreement. 2. Tenant's criminal records, prior eviction record and current criminal activity. Material falsification of information in this paragraph is not curable under this section."

It says prior eviction record, but not about breaking a lease.  Still, we rented to them thinking they had never broken a lease agreement and found out later that it wasn't true.  Anyone want to weigh in on if this counts?  I'm sure I would have to consult with a local attorney but wanted to get some opinions here first.

Our tenants are a major PITA to put it mildly.  Among many other things they do, whenever a service contractor comes to the house that we pay for (repairs, landscaping, pool, etc) they always have them do extra things or they have them return to the house because something they did isn't up to their extremely high standards.  For example, last week our landscaper came to trim the tall trees on the property.  Once he was finished, the tenant sent me pictures saying how nice it looked.  Yet, the next day they called him back because they found that there was a 12" clearance from the bottom of one of the trees to the ground, but a 6" clearance from the bottom of another tree to the ground and they wanted it fixed.  Unfortunately the landscaper is too nice to say no so he went and did it for them.  They also told him for next time he needs to make the tops of some really high (>20' high) trees perfectly horizontal.  Obviously this would be difficult and very time consuming so the landscaper wants to charge us more.

We emailed the tenants and told them they were out of line doing that since we pay for the service. It is up to us to dictate what is acceptable.  The tenants responded with a bunch of justifications (and zero apology of course), saying that they are meticulous because they want to keep our property in good condition.  

Problem is this happens every single time someone goes to the house that they are not paying for.  I'm guessing the thing to do is put it in writing every time with the contractor that they are only authorized to do the work we specify and anything else would be the tenants responsibility and they will be at risk of not getting paid for that work.  It seems silly to have to go to these lengths but I guess it is what it is.  The tenants always ignore us when we ask them not to do these things so I'm sure they will do it again in the future.  If they happen to and we get end up getting charged, can we take it out of their security deposit?  Should we send an email saying that anytime they do something like that we will deduct it from the deposit and would that hold up in court (god forbid it actually goes that far!).  Advice?

My tenant put on their application that they make $6500 plus bonus per month.  Looking at the pay stubs, he made $3,040 gross on both and is paid twice a month, so $6,080 per month.  Both stubs have a car allowance on them that plus him closer to the $6500 value but I don't think that should count as income, right?  

I'm looking for a reason to get rid of them and lying about income on an application is a reason to evict.  However, the pay stubs were included before signing the contract, I just never looked closely at the itemization of them until now.  Not sure that would hold up as a valid reason or not?

@Joe J.

Thank you so much for the encouragement!  I completely agree with everything you said.  I know I've made many rookie mistakes and just trying to dig myself out of a hole now!  I too wish I had known about this forum months ago.  For the most part it seems like a great community of people with some really solid advice!  Thanks again!

@Jonathan R McLaughlin

Thanks for the reply and for putting it in the tenants perspective.I do believe that it is always good to try to view a situation from both sides and I agree that there are some things that from their perspective should have been taken care of.However, I feel that they have as others have stated seized control of the situation.They noticed we have been soft with them and are trying to get anything they can out of us.Just to answer some of your points:

1)True that some of the walls needed fixing.I’m not complaining that it needed fixing nor did I ever tell them that we wouldn’t fix it.Upon them requesting for the paint to be fixed, I immediately said we would take care of it.I only softly pushed back on a few walls that they wanted repainted because there was literally a tiny, less than a quarter sized mark way up high on a 15’ x 15’ wall.I said that it seemed unnecessary to take care of a very small item like that.The tenant responded that not only did we need to take care of that wall, but suggested that it would be in our best interest to repaint the ENTIRE 2500 square foot house so that all the paint is fresh.This is what I mean by them taking a situation and trying to get everything they can out of it and more.

2)The water softener was not checked in the disclosures as being an item that comes with the house.We were in the process of moving out of the house and there were many of our items laying around still that we intended to take out.The disclosures is the sheet that dictates what they get and what they don’t.In my opinion before signing the contract they should have asked why it wasn’t checked if they saw a water softener on the property.It seems to me that they knew it wasn’t working, didn’t want to say something up front because they figured we would say no, sorry it doesn’t work.Instead they waited until we were just a week or so from the moving in and had agreed on everything in the lease to casually ask if the softener will be maintained for them.I could be reading too much into this but it sure seems fishy to me.Why didn’t they ask the same about the pool heater which they claimed was the number one reason for renting the house?

3)I completely agree on the pool heater.This was the first item we really tried to push back on.The only reason we tried to push back on it is because in a face to face conversation about the tenant when we were trying to get a company to fix the heater she stated “It’s no big deal if they can’t fix it”.So I figured based on her statement that they could live without it and if that was the case of course I didn’t want to pour a bunch of money into it.Once she expressed (in about 3 separate scathing emails) how important the heater was to them, we had it fixed within 10 days.Even after having it fixed they still tried to get us to buy them a full tank of propane ($300) which we said no to of course.

4)I’m not sure I understand your statement here.Everything except the pool heater was in good condition and as stated above we fixed the heater just as soon as we found out how important it was to them.They want to maintain the pool themselves which is a no go to us because we don’t want them messing with the pump and filter on their own.They clearly don’t know what they are doing.It seems to us that this is just another thing they are trying to use to get a reduced rent.

Again, I appreciate your input and for making me step back to see it in their perspective.I still think that every time they have said “jump”, we say “how high”, and deliver what they want.I didn’t even mention in my original post that we let them borrow our lawnmower in lieu of charging them for bi-weekly lawn service.I’m kicking myself now about doing that and wondering if I can get the lawnmower back.It wasn’t stated in the lease that we would provide it for them.I also didn’t mention that upon move in we gave them a $50 gift card to a nice restaurant.I’m sure this is fairly standard, but just pointing out that the extremes we have gone to in order to have a good relationship.They asked upon moving in if we had any suggestions on area attractions for them and their kids since they are new to town.I spent 2-3 hours typing up about 3 pages worth of attractions (zoo, hiking trails, golf, museums, restaurants, etc) complete with contact info and directions to give to them.When I look back on it, what have I not done for them except have the home inspected by a professional inspector before move in to identify any problems (to landlords ever do this??).Anyway, as I stated before, the moment a problem was identified we fixed it with minimal push back, if any.

As for why we believe the pool company owner over the landlords, we did not initially.We almost fired the pool company last week because we thought they were not being responsible and following the instructions we had laid out for them.However, then the landscaper incident happened and we started to question things more.We talked with the landscaper and got his story of how he was treated by the tenant which mirrored what the pool company said.I then called the pest control company we use who is also servicing the tenants home (at their expense).I wanted to inquire about how they are treated by the tenants.The pest control owner initially did not want to badmouth his other customer, but eventually did tell me that there have been a few incidents where the tenant treated his technician poorly and demanded more work be done after he had left.After talking with 3 separate contractors who don’t know each other at all I have painted a pretty good picture of who the tenants are and how they treat people.