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All Forum Posts by: Charles Clark

Charles Clark has started 4 posts and replied 36 times.

Yes, but that is not really what I mean by privacy. Obviously anyone can retreat to their bedroom, but as bedrooms are often setup for sleeping and minimal other activity they usually lack the space and furnishings to make a good hangout for older kids or parents. What is more desirable is something like a separate loft, finished basement, etc. My point is that having only 1 interconnected space for any kind of socializing is uninteresting to me. Personally, I would rather have a separate office/library for quiet work, a formal living room for entertaining, and maybe a family room for games and to let the kids play in.


Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
And that's where you're missing out here. Women buy most of the house(ie, make the decisions) and they do it for the kitchen....

 EXACTLY  hubbys just along for the ride. 


Which is their prerogative I suppose, but when its my salary being spent in such quantity I refuse to let anyone else make those decisions for me.

Would like to get some thoughts on furnished single family rentals.

From other Q&A here, I have gotten the impression that some value add is probabally going to be required to find anything that I can reliably cash flow from the start. One way to do this (at least in my mind) is through furnishing.

I am planning on a house hack setup to start with, furnishing the rented room for hopefully a small boost in rental income. But when I convert to a full single family rental I am likely to have the place essentially furnished, and I am wondering what the market looks like for furnished single family homes versus unfurnished?

Those that I have seen are usually advertised as short term rentals at considerably elevated rents, but how long are people interested in renting a furnished house like that versus having a blank slate?

Also, what does property management look like for something like this, assuming I am not around to handle it myself?

Quote from @Jon Martin:

@Charles Clark I appreciate the honest reply and I always welcome opposing viewpoints, especially when someone is willing to take an unpopular opinion. Here is where I disagree. 

Kitchen aesthetics: A lot of the things you listed (stainless steel, backsplash, etc) would still be highly desired in a closed off kitchen for most buyers. Not only do those ameneties make it more aesthetically pleasing, they also facilitate easier cooking and cleaning. As for the cost, you can make a kitchen look pretty amazing with a modest bump to your budget over baseline home cheapot materials. 

Entertaining: I agree that this is overstated relative to how often most people entertain. However I think the real benefit is being able to keep an eye on your kids while you cook and/or watch some mindless entertainment, and also be able to communicate with your family while also doing kitchen tasks. 

Privacy: I don't know if I buy this one. With a closed off kitchen, do you think the parents are going to hang out in the kitchen while their kids and their friends get rowdy in the living room? I don't see it. Seems that you would need an additional living space like a TV-free "living room" (something I had in the midwest growing up, but aint nobody got space or $$$ for that in California) or a finished basement (another non-existent luxury where I live) if you want an additional living space to spread people out. 

FTR I grew up in mid-century segmented midwest homes and have lived mostly in open floorplan homes as an adult. I'll take the latter any day, so it has nothing to do with what HGTV told me to like. I've also been the guy preparing food for the ***holes watching the epic game in the other room, which is not something I ever want to have to go through again, even for my own family! 


I will throw out some thoughts here for consideration, but this is not intended to be a rebuttal.

Personally as someone who cooks, has cooked in a commercial setting, and a man, I really only care about function and not looks in my kitchen. To me, the kitchen is no different than the garage and the workshop, its there to do a job, and one that I am going to use as much if not likely more than my garage and shop combined. So being equipped to do the job is most important to me, and if it is completely invisible to the rest of the house I see no benefit in making it look nice any more than I would worry about decorating the shop or garage. All of that said, what I notice is that women tend to feel strongly about kitchens needing a certain look and that likely drives the buying decisions in many families (and yes, I am aware that there will be exceptions to this, but as a whole this is definitely correct).

As to the privacy matter, my point there was not really about the kitchen so much as the other rooms. The house I grew up in had a single large room which was the kitchen, dining room, and living room, but was also open to the loft above. Thus, the only other rooms were bathrooms and bedrooms. And yes, I think if someone intends to raise kids, especially more than one, the advantage in a kitchen where they can see the kids from is pretty obvious for young children. However the lack of a separate space will be an issue down the road.

And a final note for comparison, although I grew up in a post 2000 open floor-plan house I also spent considerable time in my grandparents ~1916 home which was constructed by a wealthy engineer of the era. It had a separate kitchen and upstairs loft as would be expected, along with many other old school features, and definitely set the standard in my mind for what I enjoy in terms of style.

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Quote from @Charles Clark:

Opening the kitchen to the rest of the house has to be one of the worst aspects of this trend. The kitchen is supposed to serve as an area to prepare food, but in making it part of the rest of the house it becomes necessary to make it aesthetically pleasing, which not only makes it expensive but also tends to impair its function.

its stupid to put dishwashers, mixers, blenders, and other noise generating kitchen equipment in the same room. I'm sure whoever is watching "the big game" will love hearing the blender instead of the big play until you finish the drinks. 

You have certainly never seen any of the custom kitchens I have built for customers. The kitchen has become a place to showcase counters, cabinets, islands, appliances, fancy accessories like pulldown shelves, cabinet handles, lighting, etc. The kitchen is not about pure function any longer, it is a piece of art all on it's own. Even in less than expensive houses.

I've had projects where the customer would spend $125k on cabinets alone.....Appliances that cost $100k or more.....you think they're going to build a wall so no one can see them?

Of course, we are investors and a lot of rentals will not deserve the 'open concept'. But it is still here to stay and it on top of everyone's remodel or new-build floorplan list. Really inexpensive to do (usually), especially in truss framed houses that have no bearing walls...takes about 30 minutes to tear down the partition wall and voila, there you have a huge open space. I bet most realtors would tell you that it adds value too...whether for a sale or rental perspective....

And have you heard the new dishwashers? They are too quiet really, you cant tell they're running half the time. 

Anyway a few pictures......


With all due respect I think you have missed my point entirely and are looking at the telescope through the wrong end.
The idea is not to spend $100k on a kitchen and wall it off, the idea is to have it be a separate room so there is no need to spend anything close to $100k on it in the first place and put that money towards a better use.
To each there own, but I would never waste such sums on the kitchen, which even with that kind of money spent on it will still look less than appealing if it is actually well used.
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Quote from @JD Martin:

No way are open floor plans going away. 


And rooms needed to be separated so you only heated (forget about cooling) the rooms that you were living in at that time - 

Good point! I had forgotten about the heating/cooling issue. That used to be a big deal, now not so much.....

There was a long period where that was not really a consideration yet people continued to prefer separated rooms.
And to the extent that energy costs continue to rise it is likely to be relevant again (and actually already is for a lot of people).

Since no one else has chimed in on this I will play advocatus diaboli here since it’s a topic I feel strongly about. I grew up in a very open floorplan house and have come to hate the trend.

Open floorplans have been sold to people as "trendy" or "modern" or any number of other adjectives that get thrown around that don't really mean anything. However, it's important to remember this trend started in the not too distant past, and for a very long time before that the norm was separate rooms, so it's not surprising that there are actually considerable disadvantages of open floorplans and advantages of more traditional ones.

Opening the kitchen to the rest of the house has to be one of the worst aspects of this trend. The kitchen is supposed to serve as an area to prepare food, but in making it part of the rest of the house it becomes necessary to make it aesthetically pleasing, which not only makes it expensive but also tends to impair its function. Imagine for a minute if the home shop had the same trend, where now a workspace is supposed to be part of the rest of the house. I suppose we would see granite workbenches and stainless steel table saws appear on the market so you could sit one next to your living room and feel good about it. And for the same reason we don't put table saws in our living areas (yet) its stupid to put dishwashers, mixers, blenders, and other noise generating kitchen equipment in the same room. I'm sure whoever is watching "the big game" will love hearing the blender instead of the big play until you finish the drinks. Additionally, all odors and smells now permeate the entire house, for good or for bad, and the same goes for moisture, grease, etc.

Of course the usual explanation (excuse) offered for this is something to the effect of how much people like to entertain and need an open floor plan to do so. Which frankly I don't buy as an explanation. I love to cook, and when I am cooking I do not have time to talk to other people, watch football games, or do anything but focus on the task at hand. People that are "entertaining" guests while cooking can't be making anything too spectacular. If you are a serious cook you need space and focus, not half a dozen people milling about making small talk while you try not to burn a roux or break a mayonnaise.

I also find it ironic that people claim this is about being able to "entertain" even though people today hardly entertain at all, while people 70 years ago entertained a great deal and seemingly with no issues despite their kitchens not being integrated into their living rooms. Likewise, my grandmother raised 6 kids without ever having an open kitchen, while most people today are not going to raise more than 3 kids but somehow need the open floor plan to make this feasible, I don't buy the parenting excuse either.

Aside from the issue of integrating the kitchen into the house however, the open floorplan has other problems. Although it is often portrayed as making the house "feel" bigger, I would argue it makes it "practically" smaller. You have basically one large room, and that is it. You have considerably less wall space, and trying to fill furniture into that one big space is often awkward resulting in a lot of wasted space that does not really do anything.

And while these open floorplans are often promoted as "family friendly" I have come to the conclusion that they are a double edged sword in that respect. When I was growing up the open floorplan seemed fine as a little kid, but as I grew up I found it problematic since there was only one space in the house (aside from bedrooms and bathrooms) that everyone had to use. Yes it was huge, but there was no privacy. If I had friends over we were constantly in close proximity to the rest of the family to where everyone could hear everyone else. Not surprisingly, I mostly went to other kid's houses that had some space that was not constantly next to parents. Now while some parents might like the idea of discouraging the kids from congregating at their house, I would argue that it is better to be the parents with the house everyone congregates at. Not only can you keep a closer tab on what your kids are getting into as they grow up but it will help them build a social circle. And this same issue extends in other directions, for example, what if one family member loves watching the big game all weekend long on the TV, but other people would like some quiet time to read. Either you have conflict or everyone withdrawing to their own little rooms, which is less social than if you just had 2 spaces that people could spend time in.

I could go on, but I think I have at least answered the question of what is the other perspective on this issue. That said, I don't expect the trend will reverse on a large scale, however much I may personally want to see it happen. People usually like what they are told to like, and builders know these floor plans are cheap and easy to build. Most homes that I have seen which use a less open floor plan tended to be very expensive ones where real entertaining of clients and the like was a consideration, and curiously those people tended to have formal dining areas where you could not see the kitchen sink…

Post: First time home buyer HELP

Charles ClarkPosted
  • Posts 36
  • Votes 26
From the standpoint of someone who also looked into doing this, I think it will depend what area you were looking at, but in my experience duplexes in nice areas are basically double the cost of a comparable house, ie. there is no way your rental income from the other half of the duplex is going to contribute more to your cost than you added in buying a duplex. Run the numbers very carefully.

Post: Room Count VS Square Footage (VS etc?)

Charles ClarkPosted
  • Posts 36
  • Votes 26
The good news is 3 bed 2 bath is the minimum in the area, there is nothing smaller, so the lowest end is an easy choice.
MFH is simply out of the question though, there is very little of it in this market and what there is costs far more than I could spend.

Post: Room Count VS Square Footage (VS etc?)

Charles ClarkPosted
  • Posts 36
  • Votes 26

(This question does not seem to fit into any particular category but since I am asking as part of a house hack strategy I am putting it here.)

I'm trying to narrow down my search for a first time home/house hack that will eventually be a stand alone rental. For the house hacking portion I am operating under the assumption that more bedrooms and bathrooms offers greater rental income opportunity. Ie. a 4 bed 3 bath is better than a 3 bed 2.5 bath.

However, because I anticipate renting this property in its entirety eventually I also want to be mindful of what would make it competitive as a single family rental. Is room count more important than square footage or vice versa? To be more exact, consider the following.

A 3 bed/2 bath house, 1900 square feet versus 1600 square feet. Does that difference result in a rent difference? If so how much? Alternatively, will it be significantly harder to rent something which is "small" square footage wise for x number of bedrooms.

A 4 bed/2.5 bath house with 1700 square feet versus a 3 bed/2 bath house with 1900 square feet. Are these comparable? Is the extra bedroom preferred even though it is lower square footage overall? Or does the absolute larger square footage win out?

Or is there some 3rd factor of overwhelming importance that matters more (besides the pathological cases, ie. if one is a shack next to a railroad depot and the other is in McMansion estates, etc).

Would love some thoughts on this since my own preferences for such things are often not aligned with what popular with the masses.