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All Forum Posts by: Stephen Kasher

Stephen Kasher has started 5 posts and replied 16 times.

Yes, it assumes an investor who wants to keep churning for optimized return -- nothing wrong with sitting back, relatively speaking, and getting a somewhat smaller return.

I was most interested in the IRR sale computations because the loans I've found for commercial properties were very tight (as in didn't allow it at all) on getting a second to get cash out. The also all had pretty stiff prepays that made refi's a hobson's choice, too, to where it seemed to make more sense to jsut sell and re-churn, so to speak. Because in addition to the equity in the property you've gained, the IRR calculations really are saying it's time to reinvest ALL your money in the investment, even the 20% or whatever the bank requires you to keep in the property, to maximize return. Frankly haven't dug too deeply to decide if this is true or not, as I've not been faced with the decision yet.

I guess what I'm saying about Buffett is that, yes, he buys value, but it may take many months and often years to see it realized. In real estate, if you've bought a property at 65% FMV, you can realize that vaule pretty darn quickly, relatively speaking.

Post: Tax Lien Certificate Sale Success Rate

Stephen KasherPosted
  • Posts 17
  • Votes 0

Yeah I've gotten some very good info on the different methods and rates for different states and counties. Do you happen to know what the market is, if any, for reselling the liens after you've bought them from the taxing authority? I.e., assigning them to other investors?

John --

Yes, it takes into account all costs -- you can input whatever transaction costs you believe it will cost as a percentage of the sale price and it takes that into account, as well as the taxes you will pay on profit, depreciation recapture, etc. It takes all that into account and spits out an IRR for each year if you were to sell that year.

You are generally right about IRR, but the most important aspect of IRR is the timing of the cash flows. If I buy a 50K house for 30K, I have "made" 20K in equity. IRR takes into account when you actually get paid that equity.

Take this scenario of the 50K house bought for 30K. For simplicity of argument let's put aside transaction costs and taxes, to examinte the concept of IRR. In this case, I've made a 66% ROI on my 30K investment. If I sell it now, it's a 66% ROI. If I hold it for 15 years, I delay getting that 20K benefit for all that time, and all the while that 20K is just getting around 3% a year, the assumed rate of appreciation of the property. The simple math is that it's a 45% return over those years. BUT if I'm good at finding these deals, I'm way better off cashing in that 20K, even if I have to pay taxes and transaction costs, because I know I can get another 66% return with it, maybe even twice in a year, as opposed to 3%.

As far as a property that's purchased closer to retail, the returns are more on a bell curve, and the IRR will tell you to sell at a more distant date -- they seem to pretty consistently fall at around the 8-9 year mark. The IRR rates are lower at first, continually rise until you get to around 8-10 years, then they start to fall. Thus the optimum time would be to sell when the IRR is highest, in one of those years. I do understand the theory of the IRR calculations, not too many people know how to actually calculate it (it's a strange trial and error calculation best left to a financial calculator). However, to be frank and honest with you, I'm not exactly sure why the IRRs tend to peak in years 8-10, I just know that they do, and I trust that all money factors have been taken into account in getting those figures.

Each case is different, obviously, and are based on projections and not the actual real world numbers, but it gives you an idea going in of what your ideal exit time would be to maximize your return.

MIRR addresses the concerns you have about false positives -- it is "Modified" IRR that takes into account the fact that the money kicked out by an investment won't necessarily earn the same return as the money that's still tied up in the investment. I.e., if I'm making 14% IRR in year 5, and part of that return is rental income in the form of cash, that cash won't make the same 14% -- I have to put it into another investment that may make more or less than the 14% return I'm getting on the investment in the property. Thus you punch in an ROI of an alternative investment that you assume you can earn with that cash that is kicked out to the sidelines. Let's say it's a CD, so MIRR will calculate the IRR while taking into account the cash that was made in rentals at only a 4% return going forward. Thus it gives you a more accurate picture of your overall IRR.

As for Buffett, having grown up in Omaha myself, where there will surely be several churches named after him when he dies, I would never question his wisdom. But, he deals in stocks, we deal in real estate, and I think it can be safely argued that in real estate we can make a quicker ROI than in stocks, given the ability to purchase property at such great discounts that can be sold at retail only a few months later. It allows for greater ROIs on an annualized basis, if you are aggressive in cycling through investments for the maximum gain. I think that's why the IRR calculations in real estate are so critical.

Originally posted by "REI":
Originally posted by "boxcar":
I believe in getting the best Internal Rate of Return for your investment. Normally that will mean cashing in the equity gained in a good buy by selling it in the first couple of years after purchase, then starting the process over again. If you're good at finding deals, you could keep it going. More work, but better ROI.

How do you factor in the transaction costs and the tax impact when you compute the IRR?

You factor that in to your decision on when to sell. I know you have much more experience than me, John, so tell me if you feel differently -- but I use financial analysis software that calculates all those factors; i.e., transaction costs, taxes, and including what your cash flow is if you decide to hold; projects it over 20 years and gives you the IRR and MIRR for every year if you were to sell that year. Generally speaking, when you have a deal in which you have a fair amount of equity at closing, it's going to spit out an optimum exit time of about 1-2 years -- to take advantage of the equity you got by buying cheaply and taking into account the break you get on cap gains taxes, etc.

So when I said you would want to sell immediately -- it's really a case by case situation. I guess it would depend on how much equity you got in the deal, as very generally speaking every year you hold the property you are watering down your ROI a bit if you got immediate equity at close.

Originally posted by "ra45tp":
Here is what my CPA recommended - Pull as much equity out of my SFR rental as possible. Every individual property is in a seperate LLC and as broke as possible, this limits the liability should something go wrong (lawsuit) at any one property.

Your CPA talks more like a lawyer. And a good businessman -- but for himself, not you. If you have a separate LLC for every property, you're going to have big administrative hassle, depending on the state yearly minimum taxes for each, and -- this is where he comes in -- a separate tax return for each. If you're dealing in SFRs, that's a lot of extra work and cost when you're working with a small margin like on a SFR. If it's multi-unit properties, different story, but by multi I mean 25+ units, not 4.

Just my 2 cents, but I'd rather put them in one LLC and just make sure I have enough insurance to cover me if there are any problems. You can get umbrella insurance to cover the higher liability ends for pretty cheap. You can still pull out the equity and leverage yourself to your neck if that's your liability avoidance strategy.

Why not just sale right away in that case?

Normally that's exactly what you should do.

I believe in getting the best Internal Rate of Return for your investment. Normally that will mean cashing in the equity gained in a good buy by selling it in the first couple of years after purchase, then starting the process over again. If you're good at finding deals, you could keep it going. More work, but better ROI.

Post: Tax Lien Certificate Sale Success Rate

Stephen KasherPosted
  • Posts 17
  • Votes 0

I've been reading up on tax lien sales and just curious -- how competitive is the bidding for tax lien certificates? Is it pretty tough to get at a good deal on them, or are there plenty to go around?

Does anyone have information/opinions on either of the following management companies in DFW area?

Sunridge Property Management
Migneault Properties

Any info would be very greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Someone (my PM who has allowed my vacancy to get to 50%) told me that the bottom has fallen out on the Arlington rental market in the past 6 months. Does anyone else agree with this?