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All Forum Posts by: Alan M.

Alan M. has started 20 posts and replied 79 times.

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87
How's that prediction working out for you now, just 4 days later?

Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:

A really interesting comparison. Swine Flue, remember that? let me give you some statistics and compare the Swine Flue to Chinese Coronavirus. “How many of you even remember the swine flu 2009, 2010? Honestly! I don’t remember it. I don’t remember a thing about the swine flu. I went back and looked at the stats and I was stunned. Are you ready for this? The swine flu outbreak in this country in 2009 and 2010, 60 million Americans were infected. Do you remember that? Sixty million were infected. Dr. Siegel.

”Do you know how many people were hospitalized in 2009-2010 with the swine flu? Three hundred thousand were hospitalized. So 60 million people infected, 300,000 hospitalized. 

Sixty million Americans infected, 300,000 hospitalized. The numbers with the coronavirus are not even close. They are barely a fraction of a percentage compared to the swine flu. 

There wasn’t any media panic. No political weaponizing. We went through a much worse situation with the Swine flue. And then we also had Ebola. And that’s just 10 years ago, 300,000 hospitalized. So we overcame it. We overcame Ebola. This is gonna end, it’s gonna pass. 

we’re gonna rebound from this, and when we do, you had better get ready and hold on tight, because this market’s gonna rebound. The people who are selling right now and getting out of it are panicking, and they don’t want to be selling. Everybody’s doing this from a very defensive posture and point of view. this market is gonna rebound like you can’t believe because the people who have been selling off want to get back in it. And we are taking economic procedures right now that are going to serve to further reignite the economy when all this passes.

don’t forget, ’cause I’m sure everybody has, swine flu outbreak 2009, 2010, right here, United States of America, 60 million Americans infected. you have to visualize this, 300,000 hospitalized. We’re nowhere near 300,000 hospitalized with coronavirus. I mean, we’re not even close to it. In fact, worldwide we don’t even have 300,000 cases, worldwide, of the coronavirus. Three hundred thousand hospitalized in the United States alone. You don’t even remember it. 

February 12th, 2010, archives, Reuters news: “Swine Flu Has Killed Up to 17,000 in U.S.” February 12th, 2010: “H1N1 Swine Flu Has Killed as Much as 17,000 Americans Including 1,800 Children – The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported on Friday the swine flu pandemic put as many people in the hospital as during the normal influenza season, but most were younger adults and children instead of the elderly.” And it was during the months when usually very little or no flu is circulating, the CDC said. “The CDC estimates that between 41 million and 84 million cases of the 2009 swine flu occurred between April 2009 and January 16th, 2010.” So it’s maybe more than 60 million, 84 million cases of swine flu.

So the swine flu got the young also, not just the elderly, 84 million cases, 1,800 children dead, 300,000 total infected, 13,000 adults. That’s a February 12th, 2010, archives at Reuters. Seventeen thousand Americans dead. We don’t have 17,000 people dead worldwide from the coronavirus, folks. And you know what the recovery rate for the coronavirus is, according to the Johns Hopkins University website?Johns Hopkins University website shows that the recovery rate is — Sixty-five percent.

“Can anybody tell me the number of Chinese coronavirus deaths in the United States?” (interruption) You looked it up, did you? You had to look it up because you didn’t know off the top of your head.The one thing missing in all of this panic-driven coronavirus news is what? The number of deaths in the United States!”

About 60% of the death toll has happened in one place, and I don’t mean one city. I mean literally in one place in one city. Thirty-nine 39. Do you know that 26 of those 39 deaths have occurred in a nursing home in Seattle, Washington state? 

You take the 26 deaths out of the equation from the one nursing home in Washington state and how many deaths are we talking about? 13! And yet we are reacting this way? We’re wrecking the United States economy! Yet go back. The swine flu: 18,000 people dead, 60 million infected, 300,000 hospitalized in 2009-2010."

When you look at date and history it puts things into perspective. This is why I am not panicking and just treating it with the respect of any other virus. 

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87
Short answer - yes.

Long answer - if you had read the article, it accounts for the untested cases using some really solid methods and arrives at 2%. Not .01%...not even close.

Originally posted by @Tom Kastorff:
Originally posted by @Alan M.:
Long term mortality rate is closer to 2%. Here’s a great explanation of why that number is more accurate than the 3-4% we are seeing and drastically more accustate than the rate you are “calculating” out of thin air

don't even need to read the article Alan. didn't calculate out of thin air, but at this point we are all speculating, but let's keep arguing for fun. I met with my physician for an hour Monday. he is part owner of a very highly rated and respected sports medicine group, that was ultimately the deciding consultant for the recent cancellation of the 2020 BNP Paribas Open tennis tournament in Indian Wells CA. They didn't cancel out of fear of deaths or hysteria, but simply because no local hotel would sign up to be the quarantine spot. So, without a place to quarantine possible COVID patients, they had to cancel it. This is the main driver for most of the big event cancellations. No where to put the sick people, should they pop up. 

there is no argument that the US is simply unable to account for all the actual infected people. so numbers are skewed, and they are currently skewed to small numbers, which makes everything sound bigger than it is. one news site posted 300 sick 30 dead, a horrible ratio on paper. sorry dude, there are exponentially more than 300 people that have COVID in the US. there could be 300 just at amazon alone for all we know, they have 50000 employees in Seattle, then multiply by everyone those people came in contact with. 

anyways, back to hoarding my TP rolls ... 

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87
Long term mortality rate is closer to 2%. Here’s a great explanation of why that number is more accurate than the 3-4% we are seeing and drastically more accustate than the rate you are “calculating” out of thin air

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo...

Originally posted by @Tom Kastorff:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

For "many on BP" to not live through the great financial crisis Jay, which was 12-13 years ago, most responders in this thread would have to be under 13 years old. Is that really what you mean? That would be pretty incredible. My guess is the average age on this site is probably between 30-40 so yes, counter to your statement, most humans on this website lived through the GFC. And most were adults, not 7 years old, which I think is what you are actually alluding to. Unless you really believe most folks on this website were not alive 13 years ago. We all rode the same wave to get where we are today. :) :) 

We are currently not in, or entering another GFC. Unless there are tons of Bear Sterns & Lehman's hiding in the shadows with derivatives and subprime mortgage packages to drop on our heads?

The current numbers stated on TV regarding deaths and %'s are high simply because the US is not equipped to fully understand, calculate, and tally how many people have this virus. It can take weeks to affect you, and many healthy kids and adults may not feel any different then if they had a cold or a flu. And if you get one of those, are you really calling the hospital or your nearest TV station to report yourself? No. No one is. So the numbers are heavily skewed. There is no way there are only 300 or whatever cases of this in the US, there are probably thousands, maybe tens of thousands. So take the 10, 20, 30, whatever deaths and divide into a much larger pool of infected, and you get closer to the .001 or .002 % that closely resembles the flu. And does anyone really believe or trust China or any of the numbers they put out? The folks that tried to infect all our routers and modems and other computer gear and hack US computer systems? Hell no. This is a country (I've been there) that has a perpetual 365 day smog layer that makes LA's look like a bad cauliflower fart. You never see the sun in Shanghai. Most adults not only smoke, but chainsmoke while living totally unhealthy lives eating crap food. So sure, they will get sick faster and die in higher rates due to poor health. This does not directly correlate to what will happen to the US or any other country. 

Wash your hands, be smart, be careful, don't get on cruise ships or in big conference halls with reckless people. This will pass .. 

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87
Did you really just site videos from the same guys that got banned from YouTube for posting fake news? Was Alex Jones not available? Come on.

Originally posted by @Scott Mac:
Originally posted by @Angel Clark:

Sorry, the post was meant to respond to @Scott Mac, not Jay.  Newbie on the forums here.

The post citing East Asians are more likely to have the virus. That concept is based on flimsy evidence as far as I can tell. 

 Thank you for clearing that up...(Refuse to be silenced!)...

https://banned.video/watch?id=5e4592dfd798a4001cf53d5c

and

https://banned.video/watch?id=5e3d839db80adf001f9fe1ec

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

@Account Closed That actually is pretty simple math. 47 million elderly in the US, mortality rates as high as 20%. Half the elderly population gets it and say mortality is way over estimated and it's "only" 5% - that's over a million elderly deaths. 

Post: What will be the impact of the Coronavirus crisis on real estate?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

The number of "real estate is the best thing ever, this can only help" posts on this thread is downright scary. Drinking the Kool Aid is strong with this one.

 I own a few million in real estate investments and another few hundred k in syndication deals, but I'd still consider myself an amateur in this space. That being said, I feel like those in this thread are being WAY too optimistic and I'm not going anywhere near the industry in the near future. Maybe wrong, but here's why I'm thinking this way:

First - this is going to hit every single person in the US within 1-2 years. At this point, it's not a question of IF but a question of WHEN.https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-outbreak-death-toll-infections-latest-news-updates-2020-02-25/

 The goal of the quarantines, travel restrictions, school closings, WFH policies, etc. is simply to slow down the spread of the virus so as to not overwhelm our hospitals. Here's a good graphic to explain why this would be a problem: 

 Every sick person is expected to infected 2-3 additional people. That's exponential "community" spreading and means that once it's out like it is, it'll be impossible to keep it from spreading everywhere. We can try cutting back on travel, WFH, and school closings but it's far too communicable to shut down the spread. The analogies to the common flu are completely naive at best - the common flu doesn't spread nearly as easily and has a mortality rate of about 1/4 of this virus (more on that later). 

The only reason there aren't more cases in the US is that we have tested far fewer people. We have tested 5 people per million of population. That's 80x fewer people per million than Israel, 160x fewer people per million than Italy, and 720x fewer people per million than South Korea. There are far more cases of Covid 19 here than we know and the rate of infection will continue to double every week for the foreseeable future. 

Schools are closing, businesses are WFH, airline bookings are down 70%. 2 weeks for school closing is fine, but this won't stop in 2 weeks. 2 weeks is just what we know about now. I doubt Seattle downtown opens in the next 3 months. All the businesses in Amazonia in South Lake Union are going to bleed red with no one coming into work. Many will go under. 

Short term rentals? How long can someone float their mortgage with bookings reduced by 70%? How skinny have the margins on those short term rentals gotten as more and more people got into that space? Good luck refinancing to lower your rate when you can't get your place booked at anything close to the going rate.

Hourly workers will be let go. Open positions won't be filled. Then it'll move to the businesses that support those industries most affected. This will trickle to all part of the economy. Yes, some parts will prosper (it's a good time to own stock in hand sanitizer companies!) but reduced spending, reduced consumer confidence, lower profits, reduced wealth effect - these will all have impacts on the economy. This will be slow, until it's not - and then it will be fast and long.

Also, if the infectivity rates and mortality rates are what they look like, this will kill a few million people in the US. A FEW MILLION PEOPLE. Furthermore, this hit the elderly much harder while cases in children are much less fatal.

An older population passing away affects far more than if this was concentrated with children. Older people own homes, have money, spend money. The mortality rate for those 60 and older is 10%. There are 47 million elderly Americans. Even if the mortality rate is only 1%, that's 470,000 elderly Americans that this disease will claim. If it's 10% (God forbid), that's 4.7 million people, and that's just the elderly. For comparison, 405,000 Americans died fighting in WWII. That's going to completely decimate housing stocks in retirement areas like Florida, Palm Springs, Phoenix, etc. Yes, younger people will back fill the vacant homes, but the trickle down effect will mean this will ease demand for housing, lowering prices, lowering rents, etc.

Why?
The population growth rate is already lower than it has been in 50 years. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/30/us/usa-population-growth-decline-census.html.

With immigration down, birth rates down, and a virus that might kill 1% of the population, we're looking at an inevitable population decline. Population decline, especially among housing-aged populations, means demand for housing will inevitably drop. Just like when population growth is going like gang busters, housing and rents go up. When populations decline, housing doesn't do well (see Japan's housing crisis https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/japan-is-giving-away-homes-in-bid-to-tackle-countrys-unique-housing-crisis-a4010601.html)

Again, I'm presuming that the experts are right and that 1) everyone gets this in 1-2 years, 2) the mortality rates stay consistent 3) the government isn't able to mitigate the effects completely. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, and would love to hear how I'm wrong.

Post: Silver Tsunami coming?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

Good insight from everyone. I agree that real estate is hyper local but demographics trends tend to be in bigger swaths. As boomers get old, we also have a decreasing supply of younger buyers - both from decreased immigration and from lower birth rates. These are long term trends that will take years to be fully visible and many of them can be accommodated by builders just building less - it's not like we don't know these trends are coming. But they are coming and we should be mindful of them.

Post: Silver Tsunami coming?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

Cleveland, as an example, has been experiencing population decline. 

Post: Silver Tsunami coming?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

Most of these are comments are about the here and now market conditions. What's the effect if there is a glut of housing and the market has slowed? or if rates are high?

Also, phrases like "it's helpful to first time home buyers" I think are another way of saying "prices will come down". Am I wrong?

Post: Silver Tsunami coming?

Alan M.Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • San Francisco Bay Area
  • Posts 87
  • Votes 87

Downtown Tampa, yes, but what about the broader MSA? What happens in Sarasota when the baby boomers die off? Osprey isn't exactly a place attracting the younger generation