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Posted over 11 years ago

My Out-of-State Search: Step 4 - What Market (pt 1)

"Where should I invest?"

This is easily the most commonly asked question from out-of-state investors, but there are a few things I want to highlight about the question:

  1. No one can answer this question for you; the answer is unique to the investor, situation and gameplan. Risk, duration, beliefs etc. all play big roles in defining whether a market is a "good" investment, so the answer is always unique to the individual. I've summarized my plan and beliefs here:
  2. Finding the right market is an important step, but is certainty not the most important decision that out-of-state investors make! A bad investment in a profitable, appreciating, or otherwise good market is still a bad investment.
There are 3 general ways to find an out of state market:
  1. Find someone else's list or suggestion and use it. This is easy, but can be dangerous as your investment criteria are almost certainly different than theirs.
  2. Work with a partner in one of his/her markets. This is an underrated avenue, and one that I would advocate for most people. However, this is not an option for me for a few reasons.
  3. Do your own search. This is a good approach for a savvy, unconnected investor who is looking to buy out-of-state, and is the approach that I use below.
First - start with a big list!

Most of this post will focus on removing markets that don't meet your criteria. As you move later in the process, your decisions will shift a bit, but for now - it's all about getting a big list and trimming it down.

I know that I don't want to invest in a smaller market so my first step was to create a list of areas (Be sure to use Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSA) rather than cities) that meet my size requirements. I originally listed 75 MSAs, but quickly trimmed that down to 59 areas (Equal to, or bigger than Albuquerque NM). A good list from Wiki .

First Cuts: Big and Easy

The first few cuts should focus on disqualifying markets rather than qualifying them; these should be quick, easy and productive. Note that not investing in a market is not going to be a big mistake, so don't lose sleep over the first few cuts.

Weather

Remember how I said that your believes will dictate what markets you should invest in? Well, I believe that appreciation will be higher in moderate climates than in extreme climates. So, I removed 21 markets due to the weather alone.

Too cold. Pittsburgh (and I hate the Steelers), Milwaukee, Chicago, Philly, Detroit, Minneapolis, KC, Indy, Buffalo, Rochester, Grand Rapids, St. Louis (and related foundation issues).

Note that Detroit, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC and Indy all have very good cash flow potential, and St. Louis/KC/Indy are hot markets for rentals.

I hate Hurricanes and Tornadoes. Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, NO, Oklahoma City, Tulsa. I think Florida still has opportunities to be had, so ruling out Florida was a bit hard - but powering through...

Too damn hot. Phoenix, Vegas, Tuscon

Cost of property. I hope to spend less than $125K, but I don't want to scrape the gutter to do it, so cost was another easy cut. I used Zillow reports for this, which is not the most accurate, but gave me a starting point. This removed: Portland, NY, LA, Washington, Boston, SF, Riverside CA, Seattle, San Diego, Denver, San Jose, Sacramento, Austin, Raleigh, Salt Lake, and Honolulu.

Economy. we will look at the economy 101 different ways as we trim down our list but for now, I wanted to remove some glaring concerns: This removed Cleveland and Baltimore (both shrinking), Virginia Beach (too reliant upon military), and economies that looked too small to be stable (Bridgeport, Worcester, Albuquerque - ironic huh).

The Long List

This left 15 markets. Here they are, in order of size: Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, San Antonio, Cincinnati, Columbus OH, Nashville, Providence, Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, VA, Hartford, Birmingham, Fresno, CA

Second Cuts: Slower and More Precise

As we trim this list down, information becomes more important, and probably requires multiple sources.

Availability. Next, I did a search for houses in my general criteria (<= $125K, SFR, >=1990, Inc REO but No auction/foreclosures) and had planned to keep those markets that have around 50 or more listings.

This removed Providence and Fresno due to limited houses in that range (both had ~15). I Additionally, Louisville, Richmond and Birmingham all had ~50 listings, making their inclusion more arbitrary. As such, I did two things:

  1. Kept them in my growth analysis below to see if the low listings would be offset by a booming economy.
  2. Looked at the ratio of relevant listings to the population size (simply population divided by # of listings).
Louisville, Richmond and Birmingham all performed poorly on both of these criteria, and were removed.

Cinn, Columbus, Memphis and Hartford all passed, but did not do well in this area. Charlotte and San Antonio both did very well with ~500 openings and strong ratios; Atlanta, Houston and Dallas all had a ton of openings and good ratios.

Growth. Now is where things get fun. To determine both past growth and projected growth, I looked at several things: Population from 1990, 2000, 2010, 2012; 2020 population projections (http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/papers/1319.pdf), 2020 projections (http://proximityone.com/demographics2020.htm), and short term job growth projections (http://wpcarey.asu.edu/bluechip/jobgrowth/secure_msa_over.cfm).

Here's what I found for each location:

  • Dallas - Wonderful and stable growth! A++
  • Houston - Wonderful and stable growth! A
  • Atlanta - Very good. Huge past growth and good projections. Had bad luck the last 10 years but made it through quite well. B+
  • Charlotte - Outstanding. Huge past growth, wonderful projections. A+
  • San Antonio - Stable growth. Above average projections. B+
  • Cincinnati - Ugh. Poor past growth. Future projections ranging form below average to bad. D Columbus - Average. C
  • Nashville - Quite strong past growth and above average projections. B
  • Memphis - Worse than average past growth, and worse than average projections D+
  • Hartford - Ugh. Poor growth. Poor projections. D-

Hartford & Cincinnati were removed.

The Texas Factor

I'll word this carefully: my wife does not want to own real estate in Texas. I want to own real estate wherever it makes sense, but I want a happy wife more than that. So, we compromised: If we are unable to find a market outside of Texas, we will re-evaluate the Texas markets. Otherwise, we will rule out Texas... for now.

The Short List

And then there were 5. Here they are, with a high level overview of them:

  • Atlanta. A very large market with huge houses and huge lots. Despite being hit hard in the .com, financial and housing crashes a decent economy which is poised for continued growth. However, this market has been the target of investors for some time, and we may be too late. Today, vacancy rates are high, PM rates are high, and hedge funds are there in force. Housing prices are also spiking. Maybe a risky option.
  • Charlotte. A surprisingly great option, Charlotte was not on my radar starting this push, but looks very strong. It has grown well, is affluent, with low property values. It has a great economy, largely centered around finance. Vacancy rates are low and I expect all prices to spike in Charlotte over the next several years. Hedge funds also play a role here, but far less-so than Atlanta. A low-risk market. Rental law is somewhat landlord unfriendly.
  • Columbus. A college town, Columbus seems to have a good culture. However, it seems to have hung around by not quite being disqualified.
  • Nashville. Not being a country music fan, I don't know much about Nashville. It has plugged along well in my analyses so far.
  • Memphis. Not being an Elvis fan, I don't know much about Memphis. A buy-and-rent haven, Memphis makes a lot of lists as a premium rental location. Higher vacancy and lower growth projections than some others, but has a reputation for great cash flow. Still, Memphis is clearly the #5 on this list.

Next Steps

I had hoped to trim the list down to 2-3, but 5 will have to work. I'll do a deep dive on these markets and see what we turn up.


Comments (9)

  1. Matt Morgan Great thoughts Matt - and you may very well be right on both. But here are my views: Regarding weather: There's a lot of reasoning behind this logic, including: the relatively large number of poor economies in the NE, Mid-West and Great Lakes regions. There are certifiably exceptions, but there are a disproportionately large number of cities that are struggling. This is in large part because these ares were largely (historically) industrial in nature, and as these jobs leave the US, these cities are hurt. Additionally, I think the the future, the number of people who can do their job from wherever they like, will increase by a factor of 5X in the next 10 years. And when you offer 100 30-somethings a 100K income and ask where they want to live, I think the super-cold areas would be selected a lower percentage of time than the moderate or warm climates. This is probably true today, but will become more true in the future. Technology leads cultural shifts, and the technology to work from afar and live in a high-tech world are both historically new. Taken together, I think that we will see a lot of migration outside of these cold areas to the SE, SW, W, NW over the next decade or two. This will not be drastic, but the move does not need to be drastic to impact the housing markets. There are a lot of market that disprove this logic...and I may very well be wrong, but that's my thought :) Regarding Texas - ugh. First - this is an area where you're probably right. Texas (Houston in particular) looks like a freaking awesome market to buy a rental in. But I still have concerns. I've known around 10 people who have lived in Texas, and since moved to the NW. Almost without exception, they describe Texas in a bad way. They describe the people as rude and the culture as overly-masculine. They describe mocking the arts and sciences in the spirit of football, beer and 45's. This is just their perspectives, but has skewed our views. Personally - I could get past that. But my wife... Well, I don't want to start a political debate, but suffice to say that we were not fans of the political figures to come from Texas. So, I could be wrong about Texas, but I am right about one thing: Having a happy wife is far more important than making a solid investment. :) Thanks again for your great comments - they really got me thinking.


  2. Jeremiah, first of all, awesome write up. You've done a great job about breaking down the process of looking for a market and using rational analysis to arrive at a clear winner. That being said, rational analysis doesn't seem to be playing a part in a few of your barriers to entry. First, I disagree with your theory about weather. People have been migrating to warmer climates for a long time, and this hasn't prevented many of the markets that you disqualified for weather from growing over the last 50 years. I don't see this trend changing any time soon, or at least for the amount of time you're going to be owning a rental property there. Secondly, Texas is an as absolute powerhouse of a state in nearly every economical regard. They're creating more jobs there than in the rest of the 49 states COMBINED. I'm sure this is something you already know, but to let a personal political opinion outweigh the overwhelming evidence pointing towards Texas as being a solid investment (maybe not in cashflow terms) seems a little silly to me. I get the wife-factor, but still. My personal opinion is that you may be getting a little too emotional and in turn ruling out what I feel are some solid contenders for your investment dollars. Anyway, I'm on the out of state hunt myself, so best of luck and keep us updated!


  3. Ha! Ha! (about Texas seceding & owning international real estate). Jeremiah, thanks for sharing your analysis. Love how methodically you are approaching it. I started using a similar approach with spreadsheets etc. comparing different places. One factor that I'm giving more weight to is places where I already have a potential contact, partner or mentor provided the numbers make sense. As Dawn said in one of her posts, it's a huge deal to have someone you trust to give you input or feedback on potential deals. The weather factor is interesting. If one believes in global warming, doesn't it follow to stay away from hotter/warmer regions and invest in cooler places? Cities like Houston that are right on the gulf seem like they are particularly vulnerable to hurricanes, flooding etc. Both weather extremes are happening with higher frequency so who knows!


  4. Matt Mason Thank you for reading! And great thoughts! It's a good point about Columbus, and one that I simply missed the first-time through. This post was using a hatchet and probably made a few mistakes - and to some extent, that's fine. The next post is much more important, and subsequently more precise. So, Texas is an interesting one. And you're right - Houston and Dallas (especially Dallas) look to be awesome markets! Dallas has huge growth, good economy, low prices, large spaces, and hasn't been targeted by hedge funds like the other markets I've listed. Compelling case indeed. Right or wrong, the wife believes that most of the big cities in Texas are not 'good' places to live (and thus, will shrink over time). And for some reason - Texas largely has that reputation where I live in the Pacific NW. But that's not the only factor... there's also the political view. She has strong views of several Texas political figures. With that said, I also have some minor concerns about Texas. Texas has been extremely successful growing it's economy by managing the tax structure... But, a shift or two in politics, and that changes. Or another state may offer better incentives and take over. So, while every expert who knows 10X more than me believes that Texas will continue to grow, i'm not sure I'm buying it. Taxes in Texas are also high. That's not a big concern of mine, but is a relevant factor none-the-less. And when they secede, I would be forced to own internationally.


  5. Interesting analysis, but you eliminated St. Louis because it is cold and kept Columbus? Seems backwards. A lot of times you can correlate weather with population growth or lack thereof. As far as Texas, if you aren't going to live there, what does it really matter? Does your wife just hate it that much? I'd be out of place there and almost certainly wouldn't like to live there, but I think you can make a compelling case for some of the Texas cities as places to invest.


  6. Thanks for sharing Jeremiah B.. Got a good laugh out of "The Texas Factor". My wife feels the same about Texas. But we have 3 properties there and as I continue to research it, it continues to be at the top of the list. I may look into Charlotte more too. Please keep us posted.


  7. Tinna Li Thank you - though I apologize for the formatting. I'm still trying to get that sorted out... Cory T. I couldn't agree more! I think the world will shrink over the next 20 years, and as it does, people will be able to live wherever they want. At that point, we will see mass population shifts out of extreme climates.


  8. In addition to the givens of economy/price point, I too share the same x-out thoughts around extreme winters, hurricanes/tornados. Thanks for sharing!


  9. Great blog post, thanks for providing insight on how to narrow down market options!