Ontario, Canada - insurance for older house more than 3 renters?

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Ontario, Canada - insurance for older house more than 3 renters?

Kate H.
Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes

Anyone have recommendations on insurance companies in Ontario, Canada who would provide broad or basic insurance for a property that is about 100 years old and being rented to more than 3 unrelated parties?

I'm unexpectedly having a very hard time finding insurance for a duplex in Ottawa  that I am in the process of buying. After spending countless hours answering numerous questions and being on hold with numerous insurance companies and brokers, I have had two refuse me at the last minute just as I was about to sign up. The most common complaints have been that one of the units is being rented out to a group of 5 students on one lease, or that the building is 100+ years old, or random things like there have been claims from other homeowners in the area. Closing is coming up next week, so I rather urgently need to find something!

Also, I'm looking for a broad or basic coverage and can have a high deductible to save on premiums. I don't need the comprehensive policies that I have found most companies and brokers seem to default to if not push really hard. Anyone have recommendations?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/household-finances/ten-ways-to-cut-the-cost-of-home-insurance/article11483375/

Move down from comprehensive to broad or basic coverage …

There are three levels of home insurance coverage: basic, also sometimes called a fire policy, the mid-range broad policy and the top-of-the-line comprehensive policy. Most people go with comprehensive coverage, and you'll find that online quote providers typically default to this type of policy. But Mr. Browne said fire is your main risk. "You can live through a sewer backup, you can live through a theft, you can live through a leaky roof," he said. "But it's hard to recover from a fire."

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Andrew Gingerich
Rental Property Investor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 99 posts · 103 votes
7y

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommendation. But what the heck is a Gee Gee? 

-Warmest regards Carleton Alum.

All kidding aside best of luck. I wish I had a helpful tip here. My impression is that insurance rates are exceptionally high in Ontario. It is puzzling that you're having so much difficulty. Having said that, I have had multiple insurers pause and give me higher rates when buying a home that was built in 1945. But if the electrical has been updated, and the plumbing has been updated, and the roof is newer... than it should be easily insurable. 

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  • Andrew Gingerich
    Rental Property Investor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 99 posts · 103 votes
    7y

    Unfortunately, I don't have a recommendation. But what the heck is a Gee Gee? 

    -Warmest regards Carleton Alum.

    All kidding aside best of luck. I wish I had a helpful tip here. My impression is that insurance rates are exceptionally high in Ontario. It is puzzling that you're having so much difficulty. Having said that, I have had multiple insurers pause and give me higher rates when buying a home that was built in 1945. But if the electrical has been updated, and the plumbing has been updated, and the roof is newer... than it should be easily insurable. 

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    Gee Gee?

    But what a coincidence. The student renters are all Carleton University students I believe, and I grew up in Washington state. (I'm an American who recently moved to Canada and am buying my first property in Canada and still learning the ropes!)

    Yeah I'm surprised and really disappointed that I've been having this much trouble. When I first started looking a few weeks ago, I got a number of very acceptable quotes but just didn't want to commit to signing up until closer to the purchase date, in case a better deal popped up. Bad move. Apparently these insurance companies have a habit refusing at the last minute because of information I had already given them more than once (like having the 5 student tenants in the main units) or random things popping up!

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  • Chris Habets
    Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2017 · 147 posts · 52 votes
    7y

    To me this is bizarre. I've had issues with insurance fixed by calling again to talk to a different agent at the same company.

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Kate H.

    Here in the Maritimes we us A.P.Reid as our insurance broker/agent.  They have a very good Landlord package.

    They have recently opened offices in Ontario (Waterdown) and Alberta (Edmonton).  You can find them on-line here.

    NFI in A.P. Reid ... just a satisfied customer.

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  • Andrew Gingerich
    Rental Property Investor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 99 posts · 103 votes
    7y

    @Kate H. weird. A Gee Gee is the mascot for the Ottawa U. Carleton and Ottawa had a bit of a rivalry when I was attending and one of the chants toward Ottawa U was making fun of the Gee Gee (which I have since learned is the first horse out of the gates in a horse race). 

    Like @Chris Habets says, they're all fickle you just have to keep trying until they insure it. My quotes and the way these guys like to insure the same unit is all over the map.  

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  • Marc Silsbe
    Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    You can try cooperators.   I had a similar issue in the past and my old insurance company didn't want more than 3 unrelated people in the same unit.

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Roy N.:

    @Kate H.

    Here in the Maritimes we us A.P.Reid as our insurance broker/agent.  They have a very good Landlord package.

    They have recently opened offices in Ontario (Waterdown) and Alberta (Edmonton).  You can find them on-line here.

    NFI in A.P. Reid ... just a satisfied customer.

    Thanks, I'll try them Monday. Hopefully they will be more helpful than the agent in Cambridge, ON that was recommended to me by another landlord in Ontario. That agent was surprised and unappreciative that I was calling for a quote for Ottawa when he was in Cambridge. I would have thought he should appreciate the potential business even if it was in a different city, since it's at least in the same province. 

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Marc Silsbe:

    You can try cooperators.   I had a similar issue in the past and my old insurance company didn't want more than 3 unrelated people in the same unit.

    Thanks, but I did call them, and they were saying I should join a cooperative as I am not a member of any cooperative. Then someone emailed me asking a ton of questions, most of which were expected, and which I am now used to answering and would grudgingly answer if they did not also ask for way too many pictures. And pictures! They also asked for too many pictures, including of the circuit breaker boxes, furnace, basement, kitchen, smoke detectors, porch, each room. And they said they would not be able to provide a quote at all without all those pictures. What?!! That's too much, especially given that I am not in Ottawa and will only move there after closing and after the current month to month tenants move out of the unit that I want to occupy, and that they might just come back with an outrageously high quote after all that effort, as many other insurance companies have.

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Andrew Gingerich:

    @Kate H. weird. A Gee Gee is the mascot for the Ottawa U. Carleton and Ottawa had a bit of a rivalry when I was attending and one of the chants toward Ottawa U was making fun of the Gee Gee (which I have since learned is the first horse out of the gates in a horse race). 

    Like @Chris Habets says, they're all fickle you just have to keep trying until they insure it. My quotes and the way these guys like to insure the same unit is all over the map.  

    I did get the impression that insurance companies can be fickle. Unfortunately so far they have been fickle in a bad way toward me, giving me a quote after asking a lot of questions and making me hold plenty, then changing their mind on the coverage or backing out right when I'm about to buy the insurance!! Looks like I'll have to keep trying Monday. And so many of them have also been really hard to reach with the holidays.

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  • Harry White
    Vancouver, bc · Member since 2014 · 19 posts · 11 votes
    7y
    @Kate H. Try Intact or Wawanesa, they seem to insure less mainstream homes.
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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Kate H.:
    Originally posted by @Roy N.:

    @Kate H.

    Here in the Maritimes we us A.P.Reid as our insurance broker/agent.  They have a very good Landlord package.

    They have recently opened offices in Ontario (Waterdown) and Alberta (Edmonton).  You can find them on-line here.

    NFI in A.P. Reid ... just a satisfied customer.

    Thanks, I'll try them Monday. Hopefully they will be more helpful than the agent in Cambridge, ON that was recommended to me by another landlord in Ontario. That agent was surprised and unappreciative that I was calling for a quote for Ottawa when he was in Cambridge. I would have thought he should appreciate the potential business even if it was in a different city, since it's at least in the same province. 

    Kate:

    When you speak to the broker, keep things simple.  Just tell them it is a rental property and a duplex ... do not go into the details of how you are renting it until/unless they ask.   If it sounds like you are renting by the room, it will give some financiers and insurance underwriters heartburn. 

    The five-unrelated parties on a single lease may only be a problem if it violates Ottawa's occupancy bylaws.   

    We have many buildings that are 100+ yrs of age - and a few that are between 140 & 200 - not uncommon at this end of the country.  If you do call AP Reid, they will have you complete a questionnaire on your property to access its state of maintenance and age of its core systems.  

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Roy N.:

    When you speak to the broker, keep things simple.  Just tell them it is a rental property and a duplex ... do not go into the details of how you are renting it until/unless they ask.   It sounds like you are renting by the room in your description ... which will give some financiers and insurance underwriters heartburn. 

    The five-unrelated parties on a single lease may only be a problem if it violates Ottawa's occupancy bylaws.

    We have many buildings that are 100+ yrs of age - and a few that are between 140 & 200 - not uncommon at this end of the country. If you do call AP Reid, they will have you complete a questionnaire on your property to access its state of maintenance and age of its core systems. 

    Normally I start by saying I need insurance for a house I'm buying and volunteer early on that it's a duplex with tenants in one unit and the other to be occupied by me as a primary residence. Many ask details such as how many tenants and whether they are on a lease and how long of a lease. When I say 5 tenants on one lease, many tend to put me on hold and start dragging things out. And if they ask if they are related to each other, as some will, then I seem to dig myself into a deeper hole. :(

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Harry White:
    @Kate H. Try Intact or Wawanesa, they seem to insure less mainstream homes.

    Actually I have been trying to get in touch with both but with no success yet. Both seem only to go through brokers, and I tried calling a few brokers, including one who is on both lists, but have been unable to reach anyone, maybe due to holiday hours. I'm going to try again tomorrow. Do you have any broker you could recommend?

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Kate H.

    We have a student house which can be used as a 5-bedroom.  The occupancy by-law only allows for 4-unrelated parties.  We had a city inspector ask questions once and two of the young ladies in the house told him they were a couple, but maintained separate bedrooms for the benefit of their parents.  ... and that was the end of the questions.

    1Reply
  • Robert Ganzhorn
    Lender · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    I've come across this before when arranging financing...

    I might be able to shed some light on this. When unrelated individuals rent a space together it can often be considered a rooming house. A rooming house needs permits, inspections etc. Whether or not your property would be a rooming house depends on the municipality you're in. You need to check the bylaws/fire code etc. i.e. in the GTA only Toronto ever allowed rooming houses officially. anything outside of the old Toronto borders that is a rooming house is illegal..officially. doesn't mean they don't operate around universities of course. York U has a ton of them...

    The other issues is the student housing. You're likely dealing with lenders that don't like them due to damage. The insurers know which areas in which Cities are usually student housing.

    I suspect the above is why they asked you about the occupants.

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  • Kate H.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 13 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Robert Ganzhorn:

    I've come across this before when arranging financing...

    I might be able to shed some light on this. When unrelated individuals rent a space together it can often be considered a rooming house. A rooming house needs permits, inspections etc. Whether or not your property would be a rooming house depends on the municipality you're in. You need to check the bylaws/fire code etc. i.e. in the GTA only Toronto ever allowed rooming houses officially. anything outside of the old Toronto borders that is a rooming house is illegal..officially. doesn't mean they don't operate around universities of course. York U has a ton of them...

    The other issues is the student housing. You're likely dealing with lenders that don't like them due to damage. The insurers know which areas in which Cities are usually student housing.

    I suspect the above is why they asked you about the occupants.

    Thanks, but I am looking for insurance, not financing. I will not be financing this purchase and have been telling the insurance companies that there will not be any mortgage on the property. They often like that and some include a discount for not having a mortgage.

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  • Robert Ganzhorn
    Lender · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    I do understand that you aren't looking for financing. However I think what I've mentioned may be your issues. Good luck in your search.

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