So you are a Wholesaler???? Bird-dog?????You Tell Me

So you are a Wholesaler???? Bird-dog?????You Tell Me

Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes

Ok so I have seen a lot of post on wholesaling and bird-dogging and the difference between each. I have been a bird-dog and have wholesaled deals, so I would like to throw my two-cents in the game. Since other have already went in to great details on the difference between the two. I am not going to spend a lot of time on that. It pretty simple-

[b][i]If you are connecting the people that are going to make the deal go you are a bird-dog, don’t worry about negotiating the deal, I do that. Just bring me stuff that fits into my parameters.

[b][i]If you have the property under contract you are a wholesaler. You should already know what a “good deal” is. Be solid on the numbers don’t under/over estimate cost. Present me a clear deal and if it works I will buy it.

What I do want to talk about is how to make yourself, the best at either. Even as a newbie you can still present yourself as a professional that investors will want to work with. Just ask any investor, we all have lots of list and emails/text coming in and the vast majority get a quick look then gone. Then, there are the few that get our attention. We will stop what we are doing and make working that list or email/text a priority. Why??????? Well let’s take a look.

Ok some basics, bird-dogs don’t insult me with some crazy fee. I am not going to pay you 10k(even had some want as much as 30k) to connect me to a deal. I have even had bird-dogs try and take all the profit out of a deal. My average deal will pay a bird-dog 500.00 to 1000.00, that’s it. Don’t try and piggyback someone else’s deal. I had deals that come to me that have three people trying to make a hit off the top, which generally makes it a bad deal. Find your own, do the work, don’t be lazy. Despite what the latest guru has told you, this business is WORK and lots of it! I lose respect for bird-dogs that constantly bring me other peoples deals. Also, know that I already have people in place that are working the mls (agents) and others working (me and my wife) listings in papers and publication. So the odds of you spending 10 min on a mls site and finding a deal I have not already seen is slim. (Notice I did not say impossible, just slim). BIGGEST THING FOR ME IS….. Do not (repeat) do not present yourself to me as a wholesaler when you do not have the property under contract. I had a guy call me the other day on a property that he would sell me for 24k. I recognized the address as one I was making an offer on that afternoon, so I asked him if he had it under contract and he said “yes”. When I contacted the owner he said no some guy had just called him about 5 min earlier and asked about the property, but that was it. Several problems with this, but the biggest one is DON’T LIE, it is a small word in investing.

If you are wholesaling, you should have enough experience in your market that you recognize a good deal and should know how to negotiate and structure the deal. You already have a marketing system in place that includes some of the standard tactics, i.e. direct mail, bandit signs, listings in papers and publications…. You are bringing me deals that you have under contract, and have done some of the due-diligence. A point to clarify here, wholesalers do often bird-dog a deal, you don’t have to make a killing off every deal. Sometimes it is better to help one of your clients, thus building a strong relationship, don’t let greed make you the guy I won’t buy from no matter how good the deal is. But when you are bird-dogging the deal tell me that up front. We all generally do both, making money is making money. Biggest thing I look for in a wholesaler is someone who brings me a solid deal. I really don’t care what they make, as long as the numbers make since for me. In my market I find it rare when you can make huge sums off a deal anyway. If you can it just shows me you are a great negotiator.

In my opinion if you are a newbie take some time to learn the business. Wholesaling is not really the place to learn, you can ruin you creditability or worse your bank account with just a few bad deals. This is not a race It is a journey, though it is ever changing, it never is a bad time to invest in real estate. The biggest thing for both a wholesaler and a bird-dog is this, get to know me your end buyer, how I evaluate a deal (right now ROI is my hot button, ARV or LTV not so much), what areas I like and don't like, how much rehab $$$$$$$ I normally spend on a project and what is my max. Do I buy and hold or flip. Know if I am a person that invest in real estate or am I a real estate investor (there is a difference in what is a deal to each). I'll cover that in the next post, because I think identifying the difference is very important.

Hope this helps, I am very passionate about Real Estate Investing. I have learned a lot of valuable lesion, some from others, some the hard way. I enjoy sharing this information; making you better can never hurt my business, only make the industry better. If you’re new find honest people who will help you grow, and never let a bad experience taint your opinion of this business. There are a lot of crooks out there, learn how to identify them and protect yourself from them. Then align yourself with the ones that will help you, not use you.

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Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I just don't get why wholesaling or calling oneself a wholesaler matters. I don't see the need to identify myself as anything when I have a property to sell. I identify the property i'm selling and tell buyers what I need (price and terms). Wholesale means different things to different people. Some think it means a "wholesale" price, some think it means assignments or double closes, some think it means always selling to rehabbers. I think the sooner we get away from using the terms wholesaling and flipping, the better. If you have something to sell and you sell it for what the market will bear, that's re-selling. And it's retail, no matter the condition, no matter how many escrows, no matter who you sell it to. If you rehab a property and resell it, why in the world would you call it flipping? Flipping was the phrase we used just ten years ago to describe re-sale transactions with no rehab. Rehabbing takes time, skills and risk.

I have relationships with some repeat buyers that have developed over time. They can close fast when I need them to, but they also have the patience to wait out problem escrows. Some have managed properties for me. One supervises some of my rehab work. So, those buyers get first opportunity to bid or we negotiate a good price for them because of the relationship. There's nothing wholesale about it.

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  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    R. Kerry Brooks Hey man, this question kept me up for 3 hours while I was planning my markerting plan and end game. Thanks, and I don't know if their is a requirement but think about posting articles like these on the blogs too!.,

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    Jason Lam Thanks, it is always little scary posting among your peers. Not everyone agrees, but I really think that sharing is what we should do. Most of us had someone help us.

    I'll never really thought blogs but that is a good idea

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Thanks for your thoughts on this. I just don't get why wholesaling or calling oneself a wholesaler matters. I don't see the need to identify myself as anything when I have a property to sell. I identify the property i'm selling and tell buyers what I need (price and terms). Wholesale means different things to different people. Some think it means a "wholesale" price, some think it means assignments or double closes, some think it means always selling to rehabbers. I think the sooner we get away from using the terms wholesaling and flipping, the better. If you have something to sell and you sell it for what the market will bear, that's re-selling. And it's retail, no matter the condition, no matter how many escrows, no matter who you sell it to. If you rehab a property and resell it, why in the world would you call it flipping? Flipping was the phrase we used just ten years ago to describe re-sale transactions with no rehab. Rehabbing takes time, skills and risk.

    I have relationships with some repeat buyers that have developed over time. They can close fast when I need them to, but they also have the patience to wait out problem escrows. Some have managed properties for me. One supervises some of my rehab work. So, those buyers get first opportunity to bid or we negotiate a good price for them because of the relationship. There's nothing wholesale about it.

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    K. Marie Poe though I see your point on how you feel about labels, the two functions listed in my post are defiantly different. My reason for writing this post was so many new people read the latest guru or book (I'm not down on either because some have great info) and unintentional damage there creditably.

    I do care when a person who is just connecting people (i.e what I call bird-dogging) trys and make to much money. It hurts the deal, it is to me, bad business. People who will do that are not interested in the business as a whole and are only interested in money. They have no problem taking a new investor and ruining them. That gives all of us a bad name.

    Identifying the difference on what stake you have in a property matters to me because if you are just locating, then I can negotiate. If you are representing that you control it (i.e what I call a wholesaler) then I need to deal with you. I do not want to waist my time negotiating with you if you really can't even make the deal.

    Glad to see you have repeat buyers, that is a good sign that you are a professional and do things on the up and up. The problem is not everybody does. You also prove the point at the end when you say you give first choice to those buyers that you know because they understand this business. This is the same point I am making in the other direction, bring good deals, don't be greedy and I or other investors will buy. When I know I have someone solid as a locator or a wholesaler I move quickly to evaluate their deals. Thus we all make money.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    I can you see your concerns about bird dogging. You want the lead and you want to negotiate the best deal and you don't want the bird dogger to screw it up by misunderstanding their role. However, I have no space for a buyer's concerns about greed from bird-doggers or wholesalers. You, as the potential buyer, either want the lead for the bird dogger's price or you don't. You want the deal for the wholesaler's price or you don't. A "greedy" bird dogger or wholesaler isn't "hurting the deal" as you say. If they have someone who will pay their price, calling it greed is just sour grapes.

    That being said, what does hurt a deal is when newbies are working directly with sellers and make commitments and contracts that they can't necessarily come through with. Since they often don't know the basics of how RE transaction work and often don't have the money to close, there are so many points at which the deal will fall apart. That can hurt sellers. I've seen plenty of that.

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    K. Marie Poe You are correct, on the greed part, not really greed just for me I will not do a deal if the other party is taking too much out. Just me, no right or wrong.

    My idea for the post is slanted towards people who are new, I see to many offering deals that are not good. Joshua wrote about one were the guy wanted 50k making LTV like 98%(crazy). Then about one he did were he charged only 5k (as a bird-dog)for a deal the other party was making 450k. Why, because he does straight up deals.

    For new people in the business greed(wither you call it that or not) can kill any chance of success. Make your money on every deal make as much as you can, just make sure it is reasonable. I still pass deals to other investors, for a fee (usually 500-1000). I will wholesale for what ever amount I can, depending on the deal structure. If you control the property and have skin in the game then you should make that.

    I think overall we agree, just coming at it at different angles. When I am selling to a person who invest in real estate (what I would call an end buyer) I make the most money. If selling to someone in the real estate investing business (you seem like one, its a business to you not just a place to invest money) then I always make sure I structure the deal so they make their money as well. That way I build a solid relationship with you. Just think people new in the business should understand the basics.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Much was well said Kerry, a good distinction between the two, ability to control the deal. Like you, the quickest way to show someone the door is for them to decieve aspects of any proposal. Seems like they just came off a used car lot selling clunkers and use simialr pitches.
    I'm leary of rewarding birddogs for acting illegally, if they are, it depends on how they operate and really, never needed them.

    Don't be bashful, post away, I like your attitude! :)

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    Bill G. thanks I am pretty passionate about the subject of bird-dogging and wholesaling. I have so much interaction with both, and it seems to be an entry point for so many new people to the industry. Most are not crooks, just uninformed or misinformed as to the role they play.
    LOL noted on some other threads this is a hot topic, some love'em some hate'me. guess it all is a matter of what you do and how. As for never needing them, we buy 10-15 properties a month so I could not live without them. I can not pound the pavement enough and they serve as a good way to get basic info on properties.

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 706 votes
    13y

    Stupid question maybe, but what protects the bird dog from you bypassing him/her and negotiating w the seller? Is there some legal doc they make you sign or something?

    Thanks!
    Mark

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Mark, if you get the shaft one time, shame on them, you'll never deal with them again, get the shaft twice, shame on you.

    I've done hundreds of deals on a hand shake initially, if you can't trust someone, don't deal with them.

    As a birddog, chances are you can't enforce any contract you could dream up unless you hold an RE license.

    Kelly, you must be buying out of town or Prattville is bigger than I think. LOL.....Good luck

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    Bill G. Montgomery actually, mostly low end distressed vacant properties then rehab, rent and sell to end buyers. They take all I have as long as it meets their criteria.

    Mark Updegraff Bill is right if you have to worry move on, I have been shafted so it happens, but don't let one person taint your view of the business. Joshua mentioned a form in one of his post, might look into that. My bird-dogs know I will pay, no need to cheat them and it is bad for business, I need them.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2012 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Mr. Brooks, great post. You answered a lot of questions that have been scrambling in my head. I hope to see more post from you. [b]Thank you

  • Playa Del Rey, CA · Member since 2013 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    thank you for this post.

    I am glad someone gives a few hints on how to talk to a lender

  • Rehabber · Prattville, AL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 10 votes
    13y

    Thanks James Brown and Erik Helms.

    James it not so complicated, just know your market and know your buyers. Learn how they figure deals and what is a good deal for them. We all have different methods, knowing which one will help you identify the best deals for each and help you in making sure you get maximum return for yourself without over pricing your fee.

  • Real Estate Investor · OR · Member since 2012 · 390 posts · 133 votes
    13y

    Some good observations (rant) by Mr. Brooks. Honesty is always the premier ingredient in any business dealing.

    I must say that my heart is in what K. Marie Poe said. Just brilliant. Thank you.

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