How flippers can ruin a wholesale market and deal

How flippers can ruin a wholesale market and deal

Howell, NJ · Member since 2016 · 87 posts · 56 votes

I just had a real frustrating incident occur.  First of all, I think some flippers do not understand the purpose of wholesaling or wholesalers.  I have run into a bunch of flippers in New Jersey, North Carolina and elsewhere who don't really understand the merits of wholesaling and think they can cut out the middlemen.  You can't.  Or you shouldn't be trying at the very least.  Let the wholesalers find the motivated sellers and everyone in the industry is happy. 

I just had a perfect case of a flipper sabotaging a deal and potentially ruining a market. I had a wholesale deal, elderly homeowner, wife passed away, very motivated to sell. I reached him through my direct mailing marketing efforts. ARV was $240k, house needed about $20k worth of work. I convinced the owner to sell for $90k. Jackpot right? Well in my area some flippers are trying to direct mail the market as well thinking they can cut out the wholesalers and get a steal on the property. I was going to have the property at $90k, assign it to a flipper for about $110-115k, they would sell it for $240k, and everyone would make a ton of money on the deal.

Instead, the seller gets another mailing after I already sent him an electronic contract to docusign, so on the verge of getting the deal.  He calls the number on the mailer and off the bat, the flipper offers him $125k without even asking if there were any other offers.  They could have gone through me and gotten the deal for $10-15k less than their initial offer.  Homeowner calls me back telling him he got a higher offer.  I got pissed and initiated a bidding war with no intention of buying just to raise the price on the a-hole messing into my turf.  The flipper eventually bought the place for $149k and is now on a razor thin margin. 

So think about it, $90k for a property, assigns for $110k, sells for $240k.  I get $20k, the end buyer makes at least $60k, the seller gets the $90k that he was initially happy with, THAT's the wholesale process. 

Instead, I get nothing, the flipper will make around $15k and the homeowner gets $149k, nearly $60K MORE than he was willing to sell for a week earlier. Also, the market impact is tremendous. These homes have been going for a song. Now, agents are gonna be all over it and the pre-sale values are going to skyrocket and there's a risk that homeowners in the area are going to get savvy to the trends. It can potentially ruin the market. So flippers, stay on the MLS, work with wholesalers and stay away from direct to owner marketing you are going to ruin this perfect little industry we have created for one another.

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Investor · Hopkinton, MA · Member since 2013 · 18 posts · 23 votes
9y

Your story could have happened word for word the same but with another wholesaler instead of the flipper. This has nothing to do with what kind of investor is on the other side, it's just how competition works. I don't think it is fair to take the position that other people shouldn't be allowed to market directly to sellers...

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  • Investor · Hopkinton, MA · Member since 2013 · 18 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    Your story could have happened word for word the same but with another wholesaler instead of the flipper. This has nothing to do with what kind of investor is on the other side, it's just how competition works. I don't think it is fair to take the position that other people shouldn't be allowed to market directly to sellers...

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    This one should get good!

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    There's a tremendous irony in a wholesaler telling someone else not to direct market to homeowners. Not to mention that there are more than a few wholesalers that have no idea of what a correct ARV is or the cost to rehab the property. If flippers aren't getting quality deals from wholesalers in the area, isn't it just smart of them to go direct to homeowners?
  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    "I got pissed and initiated a bidding war with no intention of buying just to raise the price on the a-hole messing into my turf. The flipper eventually bought the place for $149k and is now on a razor thin margin."

    Man you sound like a real class act. I'd love to know why you feel entitled to a geographical region? You're post is the reason so many people dislike wholesalers. Entitled, profane, and attempting to screw someone over for a perceived offense.  

  • Investor · Menifee, CA · Member since 2015 · 534 posts · 216 votes
    9y
    Jason Timmerman if someone was to pay you 30K more for your property and you have not signed any binding contract yet wouldn't you take the extra 30K?? This is normal and happens all the time. Sometimes you need to give YOUR best and final and if it's not good enough than just move on to the next deal. Be careful when dealing with the elderly and deals, especially after one of them passes, I have been under investigation on a deal we were putting together for an elderly woman on her property. Everything turned out ok but my lawyer gave me some good info on it. I always have a family member of the seller, if elderly and alone, be present for the signing of the contract or at least know about it. Don't be upset about what happened, it's normal and it's business and just move on.
  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Is this a real post or a troll? So much wrong here, I don't know where to begin. 

    It sounds like you sabotaged the deal, not the flipper. He had a good deal at 125k, and you bid up the price to 149k with no intention to close on it yourself. 

    The purpose of wholesaling is to make money for the wholesaler, nothing more. The market would function just fine if every wholesaler on earth suddenly disappeared. Flippers would make more money, sellers would make more money. I'm all for capitalism, nothing wrong with trying to make money, but you didn't get the deal. Instead of being bitter, just find another one. 

    The merits of wholesaling?? You've got to be kidding. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    AKA: This is the entree portion of sour grapes. Usually, I just see the appetizer... 😬
  • Rental Property Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 30 votes
    9y
    Good for the homeowner. Glad they got a better deal.
  • Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2017 · 12 posts · 4 votes
    9y
    Being a flipper doesn't cancel you out from marketing just like a wholesaler. People go into wholesaling because they can't afford to rent out or flip in the first place. I understand your argument that everybody is a winner when you have a middleman, but to a flipper, a wholesaler can easily screw him on a much bigger profit.
  • Real Estate Agent · rutherford, NJ · Member since 2015 · 122 posts · 33 votes
    9y

    I think what Jason is trying to tell here is, that the Flipper actually got the lead of the home owner only through him when he sent him papers for the contract and as such should have gone through him. So in good faith, should have gone through him. My understanding .

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Jason Timmerman

    The only thing I am reading from your post is that you are bitter, lazy, and unmotivated. You are also jealous that the person flipping homes actually can close the deal even at a higher cost, while you can only hope to maybe sell a deal to a real investor.

  • Real Estate Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2013 · 369 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    @Jason Timmerman Is this real?! lol How did he "sabotage" a deal?!  He gave the owner a fair offer that would net him a reasonable profit AND had cash to close.  

    YOU, on the other hand, misrepresented yourself as a cash buyer and tried to screw over an elderly person who didn't know any better. You didn't have it under contract and Im guessing you didn't have the funds to actually close on it. Tough sh!t. 

    Things like this will happen when your business model is centered on screwing people over. 


  • Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Jason Timmerman

    Overall, the BP community is a positive, reinforcing forum and I try to conform. However:

    I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to take advantage of this elderly man who just lost his wife.  He should have been happy that you were willing to assist him in unloading his home at a steep discount and then complaining about it when someone offered him more.  

    You lost a purchase because you lowballed it.  Move on.  I'm sure you can find another seller to help out. 

    Please let the BP community know where you are marketing so they won't step on your toes.

    Have a nice day

  • Real Estate Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2013 · 369 posts · 639 votes
    9y
  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    Tough stuff! These unlicensed brokers, signing contracts through FRAUD BY INDUCEMENT, should get what they deserve. GET A LICENSE, OPERATE HONESTLY, or go start selling used cars.

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Bob B.:

    @Jason Timmerman

    Overall, the BP community is a positive, reinforcing forum and I try to conform. However:

    I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to take advantage of this elderly man who just lost his wife.  He should have been happy that you were willing to assist him in unloading his home at a steep discount and then complaining about it when someone offered him more.  

    You lost a purchase because you lowballed it.  Move on.  I'm sure you can find another seller to help out. 

    Please let the BP community know where you are marketing so they won't step on your toes.

    Have a nice day

     Seller=SUCKER

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Mike Cumbie

    I am here to help!

  • Jeff CopelandBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Tampa Bay/St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Jason Timmerman - You might want to be more careful about what you post in a public forum. The New Jersey Real Estate Commission would have a field day with this. 

    It exposes some very questionable tactics in your business model (if you can call it that), and bragging about almost ripping off an elderly widower through the unlicensed practice of real estate does not paint you in a positive or professional light. 

    Nor does needlessly bidding up your competition without the intent or ability to perform on a real estate contract. Hopefully every cash buyer in your market reads your post and learns to avoid you and "your turf".

    Copeland Morgan LLC4.867 Reviews
  • Mobile, AL · Member since 2010 · 238 posts · 44 votes
    9y
    So for a noobee (and wholesaler) what's the lesson to be learned here? Some people responded like the OP was trying to rip off the seller. Assuming the seller was happy, under his circumstances, with what he was offered ($90k) how was that wrong? I mean to those who responded that way, do you make an offer and, if accepted, say "no wait...what if I raised my offer higher?". Is the goal as the wholesaler (or flipper) to offer the least that he can get by on? I do admit I don't see why the OP feels like he was cheated or bushwhacked. Like someone said that's competition but don't see how he was a ripoff either. Can someone further explain what constitutes a ripoff vs making a good deal? Doug
  • Jeff CopelandBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Tampa Bay/St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Doug Haisten - The rub is usually the fact that many wholesalers don't actually have intent, the ability, or the cash to close on the contract they sign. They make a really low deposit, and put all kinds of escape clauses in the contract, then they market the property for sale (which is borderline illegal in most states without a license). 

    Don't get me wrong - people have all sorts of motivations for selling their home at a discount. But in this case (since he accepted a higher offer), the seller obviously wanted to maximize his sale price, and the $90k offer on a property worth over $200k clearly raises some eyebrows.

    Dealing with elderly sellers adds another layer of complexity. As stated above, it's generally a best practice to have another family member present during negotiation to avoid the appearance of impropriety. 

    If your widower 80 year-old father sold his $200k house to a wholesaler for $90k on a contract with a 60-day inspection period and $50 in escrow, and the wholesaler then assigned it to a flipper for $149k the following week, would you chalk it up to "Oh well Dad, you should have known better, LOL!". Or would you feel like he was taken advantage of by an unscrupulous, unlicensed operator?

    Copeland Morgan LLC4.867 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Doug Haisten

    These people are ripping off equity...taking advantage of uneducated sellers. There is NOTHING WRONG with getting a deal IF the seller is educated. As an agent, I have no problem telling someone what I can sell their property for AND what I would pay quick cash for it. There is a big difference. Some sellers want the higher price and are willing to wait, and others want quick cash. These unlicensed brokers are skirting laws to broker real estate without a license. Where is the ethics in that? One of the ten most common reasons agents get SUED is MISREPRESENTATION OF VALUE! These unlicensed broker scammers have NO accountability. Lucky for Florida, they are putting an end to this garbage by making it illegal to use contracts to circumvent licensing law. There are plenty of agents in FL that are also playing these games, and I hope the state puts an end to them as well. Sellers are taken advantage of every day. Where is the ethics in that?

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeff Copeland

    There is a case currently in Collier County. 
    Quick layout:
    1. seller got a "we buy houses" card in the mail
    2. buyer allegedly took through several "inspectors" against sellers wish
    3. seller DID sign a contract but defaulted on the sale.
    After being educated, seller backed out. "Buyer", who assigned, has filed suit along with the people he assigned it to. Seller hired the BEST RE attorney in the area. They are counter suing for FRAUD BY INDUCEMENT, violation of 475.43, AND a statute in FL that protects people over 60 if they are victims of scammers, etc. They are also making a claim alleging violation of FDUPTA--the FL Deceptive And Unfair Practices  Trade Act. "Buyer" got served the counter suit and their counsel has filed for an extension to answer. It will be VERY interesting to see how this plays out. I will continue to educate sellers about the games many unlicensed brokers play. BTW, the "buyer" has already been in trouble with the state one for violation of 475. The seller has filed a complaint, and the state has deemed it "legally sufficient"...which may not bode well for the "buyer". 

  • Adam SchneiderPro Member
    Lender · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2012 · 957 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    I'm pleased at all of the responses to this post. @Jason Timmerman, thanks for initiating this lively discussion.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeff Copeland  we call it unconscionable profiteering.   its quite humorous the basically no money wholesaling community would hold this guy out as their hero.. he ripped a huge profit deal ( had it closed)... those of us in the industry look at this as basically a criminal act..  And the person needs to be turned in and prosecuted  LOL

    I am all for profit's  its how we do business.. but taking advantage of the elderly simply is not one that I subscribe too.. a 240k property that only needs 20 k in work.. is certainly NOT only worth 90k..

    most folks would be tickled pink to pay 150k a 240k prop that only needs 20k... 

    had this seller simply gone to a reputable realtor and the property was exposed to the open market fair market value would have been achieved for all.

    Now I get Hoarder houses and super low value deals... etc etc.. especially with how intense the asbestos laws and lead paint laws have gotten.. the old days of just a wink and nob get rid of it is over.

    so on the face of it. some of these homes will need to go for VERY low dollars to make them viable.

  • Conway, SC · Member since 2012 · 114 posts · 44 votes
    9y

    @Bob B. I like the "Overall statement that BP is a positive and reinforcing forum", yes it is...

    @Account Closed, I think the idea of getting a "steal...of a deal" totally blinded you from seeing that this man had just lost his wife and of course elderly. Wholesalers try to help people out and like many said above, he was not educated in knowing the market or the value of his home. If you want to go anywhere in this business, you have to be fair.and this deal wasn't fair to the elderly man. I am sure you wished you had never posted after all of these comments. But it also opened my eyes to how some wholesalers are perceived by some of the forum community. I see stereotyped ideations of wholesalers with no regard to those who are doing it right. It makes me wonder where any of you started out? we all have to start somewhere, and many of us aren't as fortunate to have a bankroll to dole out 100K in cash to buy a house. What is the difference in a flipper that doesn't have a license to make a contract deal (besides having cash) with all the unlicensed comments. What have I learned? watch what you post, and think wisely about your deals and who you are dealing with. lesson learned Jason? 

    Please keep in mind, I by no means am taking up for Jason, but the community is definitely being harsh on comments related to wholesalers in general. WTH

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