Court House Fibbing?

Question

Hey everyone,

I've recently made phone calls to a few probate courts regarding a file viewing room for probate files. I figured I'd call to inquire ahead of driving to a court.

The response I have gotten each time is I must come in prepared with names from legal notices in the paper for them to look up for me. I understand this is one method. However, from what I have read on here and other places - having the ability to do the research through the files oneself is the common way. I was told I am not able to search the documents myself despite being public info.

Court House fib for their convenience? Or simple just how these particular courts operate?

I'm wondering if anyone else encounters these same supposed restrictions.

I'm located in Connecticut.

Thanks!

Rick H. · Answer

This email is intended for each and every investor or would-be investor on these forums who are frustrated with trying to pull probate or other information from public records: If you are frustrated by the simple act of pulling public information and trying to build a list, what are you going to do when you have an opportunity under your nose and there are problems to solve? Problems are an integral part of life! Your ability to anticipate, recognize, diagnose and resolve problems will to a large part dictate your success or failure in not just real estate investing, but in your personal life, as well. If this were all easy, everybody (as the saying goes) would be doing it. Do I go to the courthouse and and pull records? Of course not. Why not? Because I paid my dues many years ago. I no longer need to pull records. When I was actively mailing probate I ultimately hired researchers who pulled records and entered data to my specs. That's a better use if my time, but I had to pay a premium for the service. Frankly, I haven't mailed to estates in some time. Why not? Simple answer: I don't need to! I've been doing this a long time and have many sales funnels and long established relationships. Most of my business is by way if referrals. The benefit of direct response mailing is that you can get an immediate response from a prospect and perhaps convert that opportunity into a deal. On the other hand, a good referral client may refer many deals over the course of their career, however it cannot be turned on and off like a switch as direct response mail. So, decide if you're serious about investing and if your method of searching for opportunities includes courthouse data, take a handful of quarters for parking meters, and go hand out out at the courthouse. Learn their systems and "Martha the court clerk" favorite candy. Smile. Especially when she doesn't. And if your time is so damn precious that you can't or aren't willing to invest in some time at your courthouse, either pay someone else, subscribe to a professional service, or try 1-800-SELL-AMWAY.

Adrian Tilley · Answer

While the records are public, every agency/department, etc makes rules regarding how records are to be requested. You don't have the right to march into any public building you want and demand to see every piece of paper (see Edward Snowden). The records may well be organized such that they can only pull them efficiently with a case number.

Griffin Fehrs · Answer

Rick H. I'm sure you're a nice guy so I will neglect the fact your recent post may have had any possible reference to my work ethic which I am very proud of. I will manage to take your words in a positive manner. I had no intention coming off as a lackadaisical ignorant fool as you conceivably cast me as. My fault. Yet, thank you for the information and willingness to help - sincerely . Oh, and to make it clear, I am 100% serious and dedicated to investing and all the wonderful challenges that come with it! @Karin DiMauro Thanks for the tips! Much appreciated. Thanks for everyones insight.

Karin Crompton · Answer

@Rick Harmon, you are absolutely correct, though I didn't get the sense that that's what was happening on this particular thread. It appeared to me as though folks on this one were seeking to learn the ropes, to ask questions about the ins and outs. No one expressed undue frustration from what I gleaned, anyway. But that's not to say it isn't happening somewhere else! And your warning is a good one for those other, wimpy investors, wherever they may be. ;-)

Karin Crompton · Answer

@Griffin Fehrs, check out the state's Freedom of Information website and give their office a call. They are a wonderful resource for how to obtain public records, as well as for answering questions about what's public and what's not, and the best way to ask for, and receive them. (I spent a lot of time on the phone w/them during my years as a newspaper reporter.) Probate court records are indeed public. I think what you might be running into is what @Adrian Tilley mentions, in that they have them filed in a certain way and are looking for the most efficient method to pull what you need. And it's also true what Adrian said: they hate the shotgun method. In CT, the probate courts regionalized a few years ago, so you now also have a regional office that handles the records of a good number of cities and towns rather than a sleepy small-town court with time on its hands. If I understand correctly, I think it might be completely legit for them to say that you can't search the records yourself. For example, if I go to the courthouse and ask for a file, the clerk will retrieve it for me from a back room somewhere. I can get any bit of public info I want. But I don't go into that back room and rifle through folders myself. Likewise for places like Building departments or Health Districts - they have the files organized in a certain way and stored in a certain room. You can see anything you want, but they get it for you. And this is fair; it doesn't make much sense for the public to walk in and flip through files the way you'd browse the bookshelves at a library.

Griffin Fehrs · Answer

Ahh, so this is just how some courts operate I take it. Seems as though this adds a few steps to the process of making a list. Does every probate file reach the newspapers at some point?

Graham Mink · Answer

Public records are public records, they should be accessible by you, regardless if you have a name or not. I would call a local attorney and ask how they handle it, or if what they are doing is legal. I would stop in and explain what you would like to do to the person behind the counter and ask what you have for options. If they won't help you maybe have an attorney contact them, or alert the media to the courts withholding public documents from the public, that might get their attention. But I would try the nice guy approach first.

Wayne Brooks · Answer

Yes, they are telling you that you need to request a specific file, either by name or case no., as opposed to just handing you All probate files from a certain time period.

Phil Z. · Answer

I received the same story. You don't need an article, but you probably will need the name. However, some towns may have some probate information on their online Land Records websites.

Griffin Fehrs · Answer

Rick, I would certainly entertain doing that if I had the ability. That's the problem I seem to be facing - the clerks say I cannot research the recent files - but only provide names form newspapers to give them to look up themselves. The clerks gave the impression I cannot view the probate files. I guess I don't know how to get around that, if it's possible in my area.