Suing the Seller, Small Claims Court Case?

Suing the Seller, Small Claims Court Case?

Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes

I am 22 and just purchased my first rental property, a $390k Duplex right out of Philadelphia in Montgomery County. It will also be my primary residence for the next year or more. The seller purchased the property as a flip and worked on it for 18 months. The seller's disclosure was squeaky clean - new roof, central air, water heaters, HVAC, windows, kitchens & bathrooms, etc. Everything seemed new and nice. Location is 10/10. And, after competing against experienced investors, cash offers, and waived inspections over the last six or seven months, this property checked most of the boxes and the numbers crunched phenomenally for me as a first-time buyer.

On the day of closing, however, several hours later as I was moving in, I encountered a severe sewage backup during the first load of laundry. Immediate inspection by plumbers revealed alarming deficiencies: a completely butchered and improperly installed kitchen sink and piping leading to a clogged and deteriorated stack, and more importantly, a severely rusted, cracked, and leaking sewage line that needed to be replaced from the stack to the street. I did conduct a professional home inspection with a local trusted company prior to purchase, who raised no major red flags. Astonishingly, come to find out, these issues were not only visible but also blatantly obvious from the crawl space and under the kitchen sink. When on-site, the inspector identified that there was a crawl space in the back of the house, acknowledged that there was only a small wooden board covering the crawl space, and yet did not go in, did not shine a flashlight around, did not even open it. While I am frustrated by the inspector, my attorney has advised me not to pursue legal action against the inspector as I signed a waiver with him that would make it difficult to see any return from a lawsuit. Lesson learned there.

However, I am planning on pursuing action against the seller, and I am looking to see if anybody has been in a similar situation, can share any advice, or offer any insights into representing myself in a small claims court versus working with an attorney and/or filing a major suit for negligence and fraud.

The fallout from these oversights has been substantial and costly. I have incurred $22,000+ in plumbing repairs alone, not to mention initial attorney fees, yard and patio repair from excavation, and cleanup in the apartment itself. The necessary repairs and ensuing legal complications have also delayed the rental of the property, affecting two months' worth of income. Additionally, these issues not only imposed a heavy financial burden but also a significant emotional and physical strain. As I am an owner-occupant, I faced (5) days without basic water and sewage amenities, and the stress of addressing these unforeseen issues has been overwhelming.

There is no question as to whether somebody knew about these issues. There is brand new drywall covering the stack in which problems were visible, and we can clearly see that new work was done in the crawl space where the majority of the concerns were visible and obvious. Upon receiving a $20k demand letter from me and my attorney, the seller insisted that he contracted out the entire flip and therefore had no personal knowledge of the problem. He admits that the contractor had some other instances of shady work, and suggested that I go after the contractor (which, as far as I know, makes no sense. I didn't hire the contractor). he also claims that he took a loss on this flip and has no funds to make a settlement, pursue a suit against the contractor, etc.

Can I sue the seller? Would I win in small claims court? Can I prove that he was negligent or had knowledge of these issues and did not disclose them? Has anybody had success proving something like this, or failed trying? I have been working with an attorney who thinks this is a winnable case but, candidly, if I were to file a small claims case, I would probably try to do it myself, and would only engage the attorney if I thought I could pursue a larger court case for negligence and fraud. I am aware the small claims court has a max of $12k in Philadelphia and it would cost between $2-5k in legal fees.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

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Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y

Don't throw good money at an attorney. Get the plumber license, address, reviews, does he own a house? Seller non owner probably disclosed he 'dunno 'nothin 'about 'nothin. Seller is a personal name or LLC? Go dig up who the seller is. Do either have any legs to go after?

Small claims is your best avenue. My guess is in superior court it will cost you $90000 in attorney fees and 75% chance you lose. 

Paperwork is the only thing that matters. You need a report saying contractor or seller dumped plaster down the pipes in final clean up and caused the failure or letters from your contractor/plumber saying "this was clearly known by any human who looked in the crawl space," but you are a sweet not know-legible guy who never studied plumbing.... In small claims if you get a judge (not just a pro bono attorney trying to run for judge) they favor the little guy. IF YOU HAVE paperwork, images, demonstrations you could win in small claims and cost to try is small. In small claims you might be on a zoom call so upload your papers AND have copies ready in hand. Is the seller in PA? Get your Realtor to write a summary affidavit and his broker. "Seller hid the problems. Contractor a knucklehead and seller knew." Then pray the seller is a no show. Doesn't make you whole but takes the bite out. Post the contractor and seller names online, that shakes the tree. BUT ONLY FACTS not emotions. 

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    2y

    Youve already admitted in this post you hired an inspector that didnt properly do their job. Sorry, but this sounds like it's on you. If this happened during the 1st load of laundry....did you inspector run the washer? Didnhe turn on all the water sources in the house at the same time to check for leaks and draining issues? That would have caused a backup then if he did.

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    If your property is in Montgomery county you would be filing a claim in the local township

    If there is a way to prove that the seller had knowledge and did not disclose it on the sellers disclosure then you could have a case.

    Otherwise if there is no evidence that the seller couldve known something, it would be a much tougher case.

    Either way i recommend not doing it solo and working with a trust worthy attorney 

    As I tell a lot of my clients, a home inspection can reveal a lot of things but it wont reveal eerything as it is not an invasive inspection 

    If you ever need a good resource for a home inspector in the future I would be glad to share their info. They are very diligent unlike make inspectors I have worked with, who have blatantly missed visible items. 

    If the seller is not going to pay out, then you probably have no choice but to pursue them in court. 

    IM NOT AN ATTORNEY 

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  • Investor · CO · Member since 2016 · 757 posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Ari Evans

    Inspections and sewers scopes are critical. I know flippers will do a sewers scope prior to acquisition since it can eat up margin quickly.

    Like the others have said waiving the inspection does not put you in a good spot. Inspectors are generalist and as good as some are, they can miss things.

    Talk to an attorney and see what is there. Keep in the mind the ROI on going through a lawsuit, it is time consuming, brings on stress, and costly.

    Even if you win the lawsuit, its not guaranteed you would be able to collect. The flip could have been in an LLC which could be closed by now. The contractor's bond is likely to be the bare minimum, maybe $10k and the contractor may not have funds to pay.

  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    2y

    you waived inspections and contingencies. Good luck. Sounds like you learned an expensive lesson...hopefully.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    @Ari Evans

    We are a lender and have taken back properties in the past - rarely do we renovate but we never step foot in them so for our disclosures we put unknown on everything because we do not know

    A contractor or someone else may have but we as the seller did not

    So you cannot assume or prove the seller did anything

    This sounds more like you got a really bad inspection

    Did you walk the home inspection with the inspector? Did they test every appliance etc?

    Sorry but this is probably gonna be on you.

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  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    2y

    @Ari Evans You said that in the crawl space it was obvious . Did you look at everything in the house and check it out yourself ?   NEVER rely on a third party ALWAYS double check . 

    Sounds to me that you will be footing the bill on this one . 

    Welcome to the real estate business , education comes in many forms and always cost money 

  • Accountant · Bryn Mawr, PA · Member since 2023 · 409 posts · 321 votes
    2y

    Can you let us know your insurance carrier also? Some insurers have underground service coverage and sewage backup included when you get the best package they offer?

    Most inspectors disqualify the waste lines in their report and also recommended the camera again to protect you and themselves for liability purposes.

    Check the new updates for total claims amount in Montco used to only be $12,000 for small claims court years ago you may be going up one level in the court system too 

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thanks for the reply @Jonathan Bock. I definitely went big with coverage and have a strong policy with Travelers. Unfortunately, they will not cover this as A) it is within 60 days of starting my policy and B) it was not sudden and accidental but rather a pre-existing condition.
     

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thanks @Matthew Paul - certainly some fun lessons learned here! Yes, I looked at everything in the house myself, and there were many things that I did see that needed, or didn't need, to be addressed. The deteriorated pipes were obvious to the plumbers at first glance in the crawl space. Unfortunately it was not obvious to me. 

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thank you @Chris Seveney. This is helpful information, and precisely what I'm trying to figure out - even if the contractor new about it, can I prove the seller did, too. 

    I walked the whole house with my inspector and my realtor present. My Dad also joined me as he flips houses for a living. Every appliance was turned on except for a dryer that did not work, which I added to an addendum to be fixed. 

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thanks @Ron S. . As mentioned in my post, I did not waive my inspection. I paid $775 for a professional home inspection. You are confused by my comment about competing against other buyers who were waiving inspections to get deals done. 

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thank you @Julien J. , this is helpful, and yes - I will definitely be doing a sewer scope on the next purchase!

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thank you @Russell Brazil. 

    I walked the whole house with my inspector and my realtor present. My Dad also joined me as he flips houses for a living. Every appliance was turned on except for a dryer that did not work, which I added to an addendum to be fixed. It is strange that the backup occurred a week later when I got there,  and not when the inspector was testing appliances. I don't know why it worked like that but it did. Somebody told me that it's not uncommon that during a flip, especially if it's a mediocre job or contracted out, lots of debris and stuff will get flushed down the toilet or down the drains from sinks or bathtubs, and that can cause a backup quickly for the buyer, especially with old deteriorated cast iron pipes. So that's my best guess.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ari Evans:

    I am 22 and just purchased my first rental property, a $390k Duplex right out of Philadelphia in Montgomery County. It will also be my primary residence for the next year or more. The seller purchased the property as a flip and worked on it for 18 months. The seller's disclosure was squeaky clean - new roof, central air, water heaters, HVAC, windows, kitchens & bathrooms, etc. Everything seemed new and nice. Location is 10/10. And, after competing against experienced investors, cash offers, and waived inspections over the last six or seven months, this property checked most of the boxes and the numbers crunched phenomenally for me as a first-time buyer.

    how you could sue the seller while you're waiving inspection contingency ? i dont get it..

    also during contingency process you could bring inspector and plumber at the same time. inspector would not check the detail of the plumbing but plumber does.

    last time i purchased home the reverse was happened to me, plumber reported "change verything" for 15k, then we get discount for 10k ; when I moved in, simple waterjet works.

    do you know if problem can be fixed by waterjet or adding cleanout ?

    also for thing like exvacation ,etc,etc... get multiple bid, I see similar project from cheap 5k to 20k. Everything is negotiable in plumbing business, go with small guy plumber.

  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ari Evans:

    Thanks @Ron S. . As mentioned in my post, I did not waive my inspection. I paid $775 for a professional home inspection. You are confused by my comment about competing against other buyers who were waiving inspections to get deals done. 

    Apologies, I meant, you signed a "WAIVER" with your inspection to apparently hold him harmless for his negligence . In my opinion, You have no case. YOU hired YOUR inspector and YOUR inspector gave no indication of any issues and YOU went with YOUR inspector's report. You had every opportunity to inspect and perform all due diligence necessary and offered by the seller. You eventually signed off on all inspection contingencies so, to me, you bear all liability but, fortunately, i'm just some guy with an opinion that doesn't matter. All that said, i'm very confident an attorney will take your case, winnable or not. I see attorneys take cases against my bank every day, knowing they don't have a chance to prevail but satisfied with the retainer and billable hours.

  • Member since 2023 · 14 posts · 12 votes
    2y

    Thanks for the clarification @Ron S. . I certainly didn't come here to try and dodge accountability or suggest there was nothing I could have done to prevent this so I appreciate your feedback and insight :) Just want to weigh my attorney's advice against other investors who have been here before. Seems like most responses think this is a "deal with it, learn from it, and move on" type of scenario. 

  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ari Evans:

    Thanks for the clarification @Ron S. . I certainly didn't come here to try and dodge accountability or suggest there was nothing I could have done to prevent this so I appreciate your feedback and insight :) Just want to weigh my attorney's advice against other investors who have been here before. Seems like most responses think this is a "deal with it, learn from it, and move on" type of scenario. 


    I don't think you came to dodge accountability. I think you have a very calm demeanor from your writings, and applaud you for your ability to take criticism from all of us armchair quarterbacks. People your age usually respond to critiques by rioting.

    To your point, yeah, probably a move on scenario but, if you can find an attorney that will take it on contingency, you might be able to shake the tree a bit for some remediation. In any event, good luck on your endeavors.

  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    Don't throw good money at an attorney. Get the plumber license, address, reviews, does he own a house? Seller non owner probably disclosed he 'dunno 'nothin 'about 'nothin. Seller is a personal name or LLC? Go dig up who the seller is. Do either have any legs to go after?

    Small claims is your best avenue. My guess is in superior court it will cost you $90000 in attorney fees and 75% chance you lose. 

    Paperwork is the only thing that matters. You need a report saying contractor or seller dumped plaster down the pipes in final clean up and caused the failure or letters from your contractor/plumber saying "this was clearly known by any human who looked in the crawl space," but you are a sweet not know-legible guy who never studied plumbing.... In small claims if you get a judge (not just a pro bono attorney trying to run for judge) they favor the little guy. IF YOU HAVE paperwork, images, demonstrations you could win in small claims and cost to try is small. In small claims you might be on a zoom call so upload your papers AND have copies ready in hand. Is the seller in PA? Get your Realtor to write a summary affidavit and his broker. "Seller hid the problems. Contractor a knucklehead and seller knew." Then pray the seller is a no show. Doesn't make you whole but takes the bite out. Post the contractor and seller names online, that shakes the tree. BUT ONLY FACTS not emotions. 

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Ari Evans there is nearly always a waiver on the inspection that they aren't liable for more than the cost of the inspection. You could try to get that cost back if they failed to mention any issues that were obvious under the sink, not sure how successful. 

    Probably for a claim against seller too much for small claims court.  Likely an expensive lesson but if you do decide to sue and you can go to small claims talk to the neighbors. Maybe they know of issues prior.  All that said I think the lawyers will be the only one to benefit in court.

    Are you the first offer of were any previous offers made that fell through on inspection? 

  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Colleen F. makes a great point. Was any other failed buyer in front of you? Find out, contact them and buyer agent. If prior buyer or inspector notified seller then you have something solid.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    Sorry that you're going through this! I agree with the others, the time to uncover these issues was during your inspection window. Always, always get a sewer scope, even on new construction (I've seen brand new houses with messed up sewer lines). I'm not sure about the laws in your area, and I'm not a lawyer, but in my experience home purchases are considered "as-is" transactions. After closing, it can be difficult to get anything back from the seller. I believe that you'd have to prove that they knew about the issue and didn't disclose, or actively covered it up. 

    Your inspector only typically does a "visual inspection" and doesn't guarantee they'll find every single problem that could be hiding in the walls or plumbing. Maybe they should have seen the deteriorating pipes, but it can be hard to tell just by looking what is minor surface rust and what is a major issue. They probably did note what type of pipes are there and their general condition in their report. Even if they didn't, the inspector is usually only liable up to the cost of the inspection. Unfortunately these types of issues are more common with recently flipped houses, so extra due diligence is required whenever you know you're buying a flip. The fact that the seller is a flipper, never lived there and didn't do the work themselves will make it harder to go after them. They may not have actually known about the plumbing issues there. 

    Keep us posted on how it goes, and hopefully this ends up being a good property for you despite these issues. It could definitely be worse! Good learning experience anyway... people often say "never buying without an inspection", but what they don't say is that even when you get an inspection it's wise to look into things further, and do your own due diligence. Bring in specialists as needed, because inspectors are just generalists. I always recommend an inspection, sewer scope, and radon test at minimum (although I've skipped them myself when buying cash, getting a great deal due to bad condition, and planning to fully remodel anyway). If I know it's a flip I'll look more into any potential major issues like structural, plumbing, electrical, mechanical systems etc. which flippers don't always address, and sometimes try to cover up. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ari Evans:

    Thank you @Russell Brazil. 

    I walked the whole house with my inspector and my realtor present. My Dad also joined me as he flips houses for a living. Every appliance was turned on except for a dryer that did not work, which I added to an addendum to be fixed. .... backup occurred a week later .... not when the inspector was testing appliances. 

    So let's recap. 

    Seller made disclosures. You had a slew of professionals go over the place for full due diligence and you yourself also went over things and with that considered all acceptable and closed. 

    What I am getting here is that you had expectations of how everything would be, the actual entire life days, weeks, months, years after this. And than when something NOT in your plans happened, when life happened, and you had to deal with life, your now pist-off saying "wtf, this isn't the day-dream I had" and now want someone to give restitution to give you that day-dream you expected. 

    The first thing is that sh#t happens. The only guarantee in Investment Real Estate is that things will NOT go 100% according to plan, perfect and fine, all the time. Sh#t WILL happen, only questions are *when, *how, and *how you prepare, mitigate and address such. 

    Now, I'm not trying to hit ya down but I am trying to smack you into reality, I think you got a bit too lost in the day-dream of it all. And your mindset is all wrong, your expectations are way out of line, you gotta get those sorted. 

    Your smart enough to see that you had this whole slew of professionals in the house, doing due diligence, and not a 1 of you caught any of this. You say your Dad's a REI pro and that he didn't catch any of this. The inspector thoroughly tested things and all was fine. Your actions right there are the #1 best defense of the seller, that it was THOUROUGHLY gone through and nobody caught it, which is evidence to affirm sellers statement that they were not aware of any issues.

    It seems that just looking for justifications, to lay outward blame, that you were correct in your expectations of "perfection" and thus don't have to hold self accountable that maybe your expectations are not aligned with reality. 

    Sh#t will happen, that's the biz. And if took a lesson it would be don't ignore the crawl space, telling inspector it's ok to gloss over. That you'd be more thorough going forward. Maybe getting a home warranty plan at closing. 

    But suing seller, that's going to go nowhere, other than add to your losses, you have 0 case. Seller has all evidence of no knowledge on there side, including your passing inspection. 

    Sh#t can and will happen, and happen in ever more occurring manners to which one invites it to happen. Work to reduce the ways it's invited.  

  • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Russell Brazil

    To be fair to OP, inspector do not text washer.dryer units in Pa.

    But the inspector should have water running and flush toilets. That should be enough to see issue

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  • Real Estate Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 543 posts · 474 votes
    2y

    @Ari Evans This really sucks - sorry it happened to you. But a lesson for all new buyers is to be VERY careful when purchasing a flip. Some flippers really believe in ‘putting lipstick on a pig’ and screwing the buyer. There is a reason one city inspector told me, and I quote “we hate flippers”.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    2y

    I have received compensation for a non-disclosure before, but in my case I was able to prove the seller knew of the issue and did not disclose it.

    You speculate that the seller should have known, but you cannot prove it.  Seller claims they contracted out all work and did not know of the issues.  He may be lying, but proving it will be very difficult.

    Suing in small claims court will not cost much and may end up with an offer to settle.  I would think pursuing the issue with a lawyer will end up with legal fees in excess of any settlement.  It is up to you if small claims court is worth pursuing, but if a settlement is not offered, I think it is unlikely you win in small claims court because you have no proof and your inspector missed the items which the seller could use to argue that the problems were not obvious.

    Good luck

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