Quote from maintenance company - are they trying to rip me off??

Quote from maintenance company - are they trying to rip me off??

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes

Ok, so I've been skeptical for many, many years of hiring a PM. My main concerns were that a PM wouldn't care for my properties like I would, that I would pay exorbitant amounts for any kind of maintenance, and that they wouldn't fight to get me high rents (in alignment with market comps). 

With that, my portfolio became too much for me to manage, and I've taken the plunge and hired a PM. My building just had a vacancy and the PM proceeded to get the maintenance company to quote out work needed prior to placing a tenant. 

About the unit: this particular unit is a 450 sqft studio with 1 full bath and a small kitchenette. When I got the quote I was floored, couldn't believe it. I've omitted the name of the company to maintain confidentiality. 

Parts I'm having a very hard time with... to paint the unit along with a very small wooden stairway leading to the front door, maybe 4-5 feet wide and 3 steps, they want over 2k. For unknown reasons to me they want to replace the faucet, angle stops, and supply lines. Upon inspection it seems that the only thing needed is a new faucet cap. They want $40 to plug in a C02 detector into the wall for crying out loud. For reasons unknown to me, they are wanting to apply a new "stain coat" on top of laminate. Maybe this is a thing, but I've never heard of it. Floors are generally in ok condition, some minor scratches. 

The one thing that did look ok to me was the electrical work in the bathroom. If there's something wrong there I would have no problem paying someone a couple hundred dollars to get it right. 

Are these guys trying to take me for a ride?

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Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
3y
Aloha,

If you are used to doing this work yourself, of course it is going to seem exorbitant. A quick calc comes up with $3675 for labor, including $595 for plumbing and electrical labor. What does a properly licensed and insured plumber or electrician cost in your area? Here it is typical to see $125 - $145 per hour, plus a trip charge. Locksmith is actually about the same. Apparently there was at least some troubleshooting for the electrical switches and GFCI. Regarding the plumbing, I routinely request that "old style" stop valves (multi-turn gate type) be replaced with quarter turn ball valves that have a much longer operational life. It is good preventative maintenance to replace the flex supply lines before they burst and do real damage. Without a pic of the faucet, I have no judgment on that decision, but if showing excessive corrosion and/or age of plastic components, depending on overall condition of the unit I will likely change as well. Old, or cheap, faucets will start leaking, again potentially causing damage if stems are leaking back into the cabinet or wall. A single service call is cheaper than multiple trips for issues that could have been addressed during turnover.

What is the going labor rate for properly licensed and insured carpenters/painters in your area? Work the numbers backwards to see approximately how many hours of labor they are charging for. You stated "the PM proceeded to get the maintenance company..." That sounds like a third party, not in house maintenance staff of the PM. What does your Management Agreement state with regard to repair expenses...does PM mark up, or is it charged at cost, or?

You should have spent more time learning about the process and costs for turnover before signing a contract. All PM's are NOT created equal! When was the last time this unit had significant work, like complete paint or any updates? Maybe the PM has a higher standard of what is offered for rent than what you have in the past...we have no way of knowing. How long was the last tenant in it? Who screened and placed the tenant?
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  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    3y

    No one will care as much about your property as you will.  Did you ask them why they need to do so much?  I'd say yes.  Take the list and do some of the stuff yourself-it will be easier and you will get a better idea of the condition of the place.  My PM is normally good, but we had a tenant who was rough and there were two calls to plumbers-they charged $700 to replace a part-it was crazy because I know for $700 I could have gotten brand new faucets installs and that is not what they did.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Greg R.:

    Ok, so I've been skeptical for many, many years of hiring a PM. My main concerns were that a PM wouldn't care for my properties like I would, that I would pay exorbitant amounts for any kind of maintenance, and that they wouldn't fight to get me high rents (in alignment with market comps). 

    With that, my portfolio became too much for me to manage, and I've taken the plunge and hired a PM. My building just had a vacancy and the PM proceeded to get the maintenance company to quote out work needed prior to placing a tenant. 

    About the unit: this particular unit is a 450 sqft studio with 1 full bath and a small kitchenette. When I got the quote I was floored, couldn't believe it. I've omitted the name of the company to maintain confidentiality. 

    Parts I'm having a very hard time with... to paint the unit along with a very small wooden stairway leading to the front door, maybe 4-5 feet wide and 3 steps, they want over 2k. For unknown reasons to me they want to replace the faucet, angle stops, and supply lines. Upon inspection it seems that the only thing needed is a new faucet cap. They want $40 to plug in a C02 detector into the wall for crying out loud. For reasons unknown to me, they are wanting to apply a new "stain coat" on top of laminate. Maybe this is a thing, but I've never heard of it. Floors are generally in ok condition, some minor scratches. 

    The one thing that did look ok to me was the electrical work in the bathroom. If there's something wrong there I would have no problem paying someone a couple hundred dollars to get it right. 

    Are these guys trying to take me for a ride?


     Greg is your PM hands-on or having more corporate vibes? The PM that's more 'corporatist' tend to be money-pit for repair, I avoid any big name if I can, that's the lesson I learnt.

  • Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Aloha,

    If you are used to doing this work yourself, of course it is going to seem exorbitant. A quick calc comes up with $3675 for labor, including $595 for plumbing and electrical labor. What does a properly licensed and insured plumber or electrician cost in your area? Here it is typical to see $125 - $145 per hour, plus a trip charge. Locksmith is actually about the same. Apparently there was at least some troubleshooting for the electrical switches and GFCI. Regarding the plumbing, I routinely request that "old style" stop valves (multi-turn gate type) be replaced with quarter turn ball valves that have a much longer operational life. It is good preventative maintenance to replace the flex supply lines before they burst and do real damage. Without a pic of the faucet, I have no judgment on that decision, but if showing excessive corrosion and/or age of plastic components, depending on overall condition of the unit I will likely change as well. Old, or cheap, faucets will start leaking, again potentially causing damage if stems are leaking back into the cabinet or wall. A single service call is cheaper than multiple trips for issues that could have been addressed during turnover.

    What is the going labor rate for properly licensed and insured carpenters/painters in your area? Work the numbers backwards to see approximately how many hours of labor they are charging for. You stated "the PM proceeded to get the maintenance company..." That sounds like a third party, not in house maintenance staff of the PM. What does your Management Agreement state with regard to repair expenses...does PM mark up, or is it charged at cost, or?

    You should have spent more time learning about the process and costs for turnover before signing a contract. All PM's are NOT created equal! When was the last time this unit had significant work, like complete paint or any updates? Maybe the PM has a higher standard of what is offered for rent than what you have in the past...we have no way of knowing. How long was the last tenant in it? Who screened and placed the tenant?
  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Greg R.:

    Ok, so I've been skeptical for many, many years of hiring a PM. My main concerns were that a PM wouldn't care for my properties like I would, that I would pay exorbitant amounts for any kind of maintenance, 

     And you were exactly right.  

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 756 votes
    3y

    It seems quite high to me. I would consider at the minimum getting a couple more estimates. That's the problem with letting someone else manage things sometimes. People will not care or take advantage. Has your PM generally been good? I'd maybe ask him something like "Does this estimate for ____ seem a bit high to you?" and go from there. See how he reacts, etc. It's hard to trust someone to care about your investments as much as you do. 

  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    This looks pretty fair to me on paper, but you have a bigger issue in my opinion. 

    Lots of investors lose sight of the forest for the trees in exactly the same way you are- you're assuming everyone is out to get you and doesn't understand theh processes as well as you do. A good PM (I have no idea if yours is good or not) is like gold- they take the day to day off of your plate and make your investment passive. In addition, in many cases, they'll make you MORE money by limiting vacancy, proactively dealing with maintenance and capex, providing professional screening and providing you with higher quality tenants, saving you valuable time and keeping your units at market rates. 

    You need to decide if your PM is good or if you are just too involved. Your PM is your business partner and it's vital that you trust your partners, obviously. It's not unreasonable for your partners to make money too- it should just be totally transparent and you should all be on the same page. 

    Best of luck!

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Corby Goade:

    This looks pretty fair to me on paper, but you have a bigger issue in my opinion. 

    Lots of investors lose sight of the forest for the trees in exactly the same way you are- you're assuming everyone is out to get you and doesn't understand theh processes as well as you do. 

    You need to decide if your PM is good or if you are just too involved. Your PM is your business partner and it's vital that you trust your partners, obviously. It's not unreasonable for your partners to make money too- it should just be totally transparent and you should all be on the same page. 

    Best of luck!

    I don't think everyone is out to get me. However, I'd be ignorant to think that everyone has my best interests in mind. 

    I have no problem with my business partners making money - hence me paying him his management fee. I didn't try to negotiate it down or beat him up on it.  However, I expect the relationship to be reciprocal.  

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    3y

    The vertical blind and replacement labor floored me.  Mine are $70 and take 4 minutes if the wall brackets are already in.  Their invoice is like $500. 

    With my PM, I had 'notify me before you send a licensee' order.   The PM wasn’t licensed to swap a plug or fixture and I saw their previous owner invoices.   I'd do the faucet and GFCI / receptacles myself. 

    While there you can evaluate whether complete repainting, floor clear coat, etc are even needed.  Are all turnovers going to run $100/sqft?  LOL

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Greg R.:

    1. Why are they suggesting so much work needed for a 450sq.ft. studio? Either this place is in bad condition or your PM is taking you for a ride.

    2. The prices look fair for what they are doing. If you don't want to pay $40 to install a CO2 detector, then find your own professional or do it yourself.

    3. If your PM doesn't care about the property as much as you, why would they bother with all these improvements?

    4. The higher the rent rate, the more money the PM makes. So they do have a vested interest in keeping the property in top shape, renting it for hte highest rate possible, and reducing vacancy. Unless they are stupid, their interests align with yours.

    "Nobody will care for your property better than you."

    This is a tired line from so many Landlords. Dig deeper. I see a lot of DIY Landlords that make comments like this and then a review of their rentals show deferred maintenance, below-market rent rates, non-paying tenants, and other problems. The majority of my Landlords make more money after hiring me and their properties are better maintained.

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  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Richard F.:
    Aloha,

    If you are used to doing this work yourself, of course it is going to seem exorbitant. A quick calc comes up with $3675 for labor, including $595 for plumbing and electrical labor. What does a properly licensed and insured plumber or electrician cost in your area? Here it is typical to see $125 - $145 per hour, plus a trip charge. Locksmith is actually about the same. Apparently there was at least some troubleshooting for the electrical switches and GFCI. Regarding the plumbing, I routinely request that "old style" stop valves (multi-turn gate type) be replaced with quarter turn ball valves that have a much longer operational life. It is good preventative maintenance to replace the flex supply lines before they burst and do real damage. Without a pic of the faucet, I have no judgment on that decision, but if showing excessive corrosion and/or age of plastic components, depending on overall condition of the unit I will likely change as well. Old, or cheap, faucets will start leaking, again potentially causing damage if stems are leaking back into the cabinet or wall. A single service call is cheaper than multiple trips for issues that could have been addressed during turnover.

    What is the going labor rate for properly licensed and insured carpenters/painters in your area? Work the numbers backwards to see approximately how many hours of labor they are charging for. You stated "the PM proceeded to get the maintenance company..." That sounds like a third party, not in house maintenance staff of the PM. What does your Management Agreement state with regard to repair expenses...does PM mark up, or is it charged at cost, or?

    You should have spent more time learning about the process and costs for turnover before signing a contract. All PM's are NOT created equal! When was the last time this unit had significant work, like complete paint or any updates? Maybe the PM has a higher standard of what is offered for rent than what you have in the past...we have no way of knowing. How long was the last tenant in it? Who screened and placed the tenant?
    Hello Richard, I generally don't do much work on my properties. I have a network of people that I hire to do work. And I don't think this is a licensed plumber or electrician. It's a "maintenance and repair" company - looks like maybe 1-2 people who formed an LLC and printed some business cards. There is no license number listed anywhere on their quote, etc. I've seen a few of these "professional handyman" type companies around before. From what I can tell it's looking like one of those. 

    If there are signs of wear and tear, I totally get it. However, I'm sure most of us have seen original plumbing from the 70's-80's still running strong. If everything is working fine and there's no reason to think otherwise, I'm not a fan of replacing stuff just because. 

    This unit was completely remodeled inside and out 5 years ago. The same tenants were in the unit for the last 5 years. During this time there wasn't a single service call that I recall. It definitely needs the stuff you would expect such as, paint, blinds, deep cleaning, and some other odds and ends.

    And I'm not against every price on the quote, such as replacing a single door knob and dead bolt. However, these all seem to be priced as if they were individual jobs. For instance, if the only thing I needed was the door/ deadbolt I would expect to pay $115 in labor. Even though it's 10-15 minutes of work, they are taking the time to go out there etc. However, if they're already at the property and need to take care of a few small things (filter in the furnace, doorbell, install a new window screen, etc.), I wouldn't expect to pay a separate $100-150 service charge for every little thing that needed to be done. For instance, this guy sent a quote for $4,600 + and he still is wanting to charge me $40 to plug in a C02 detector into a wall outlet. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not ok with that.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Steve Vaughan:

    The vertical blind and replacement labor floored me.  Mine are $70 and take 4 minutes if the wall brackets are already in.  Their invoice is like $500. 

    With my PM, I had 'notify me before you send a licensee' order.   The PM wasn’t licensed to swap a plug or fixture and I saw their previous owner invoices.   I'd do the faucet and GFCI / receptacles myself. 

    While there you can evaluate whether complete repainting, floor clear coat, etc are even needed.  Are all turnovers going to run $100/sqft?  LOL

    Thanks Steve. Exactly my thoughts. The blinds we need are definitely under $100, and as you've said the brackets are already there. It's 2 windows. literally a couple minutes. 

    Again, maybe I'm in the minority mindset here, but why should we accept higher maintenance costs while working with a professional PM? If a PM manages hundreds or thousands of units, they are feeding a lot of work to various contractors/ handymen. Me being a regular guy shouldn't be able to get significantly lower prices than someone managing a ton of units.

    And to clarify, the handyman that I regularly use has a business, insurance, and is bonded. He provides invoices, and is a legit guy. He charges a $89 service fee to come out and $40 per hour for labor. Most honest handyman that I've worked with charge between $40-50 per hour, which is a reasonable rate to do misc. work, such as light plumbing, light electrical, changing locks, etc. The exact kind of stuff that's done routinely while turning over a unit. 

    All the work that's needed/ quoted here is a one-day job for 2 people, or a 2-day job (max) for 1 person. Again, it's a 450 sqft studio. 
  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

     Greg is your PM hands-on or having more corporate vibes? The PM that's more 'corporatist' tend to be money-pit for repair, I avoid any big name if I can, that's the lesson I learnt.

    Hey Carlos, good hearing from you. I thought they were more hands-on, but it's starting to seem that they are the more corporate type. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Yes, they're bleeping you. 

    If you hired an electrician to reinstall switches and GFCIs in a bathroom I doubt it would cost more than $100 labor in most markets, including the service call. 

    $40 to install a CO2 detector? I'm assuming this is a 1 minute job as if there was any new wiring involved it would cost more than $40. If they're switching out a wired CO2 it literally takes a minute, even when using a different adaptor. If it's unwired it will literally take me under 2 minutes to drill two small holes in the wall, place the detector and then use my drill to screw in two screws to hold it up. I sometimes use the plug-in CO2 detectors as well, which of course take no time to install. 

    How many blinds were installed? I prefer the cordless blinds and even if I'm hanging them myself it takes maybe 90 minutes for me to hang 6 of them; most of the time is installing the two brackets but not knowing what it takes to hang the blinds you had installed it's tough to say. 

    Did they hire a locksmith to install the locks? Because it's simple to install door locks and takes under 10 minutes to install both the deadbolt and handle lock, unless there are repairs or modifications needed to properly install the new lock.

    I've had my plumber install new faucets and fixtures for me and even if they have to replace some PVC pipes (when they see an issue they tend to fix it for me) I'm looking at around $100 for the labor as well as the set price they charge to show up. $295.00 is insane. 

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 887 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    1. Why are they suggesting so much work needed for a 450sq.ft. studio? Either this place is in bad condition or your PM is taking you for a ride.

    2. The prices look fair for what they are doing. If you don't want to pay $40 to install a CO2 detector, then find your own professional or do it yourself.

    3. If your PM doesn't care about the property as much as you, why would they bother with all these improvements?

    4. The higher the rent rate, the more money the PM makes. So they do have a vested interest in keeping the property in top shape, renting it for hte highest rate possible, and reducing vacancy. Unless they are stupid, their interests align with yours.

    "Nobody will care for your property better than you."

    This is a tired line from so many Landlords. Dig deeper. I see a lot of DIY Landlords that make comments like this and then a review of their rentals show deferred maintenance, below-market rent rates, non-paying tenants, and other problems. The majority of my Landlords make more money after hiring me and their properties are better maintained.

    1) Place is not in bad shape, but it's been lived in for the last 5 years. It needs what you would expect out of a unit that's been occupied for the last 5 years.

    2) Thanks for your perspective, I disagree about prices being fair. 

    3) This list was not created by the PM. The PM sent the maintenance company out to do their inspection and provide a quote of what the maintenance company thought needed to be done. From there the maintenance company sent the quote to the PM who approved it on his end, and then sent it to me for approval. Therefore, there was very little bother to the PM. It was a phone call to the maintenance company to schedule the inspection, and then forwarding their quote to me for approval/ payment. 

    4) Of course high rent benefits the PM as much as the owner. However, that's not what we're talking about. We're specifically  talking about the cost to get the unit rent ready to get the highest rent possible. What I pay for the work has absolutely zero impact on the PM and their bottom line. I absorb 100% of maintenance costs.  
  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    Individual line-item prices are not absurd or anything, especially with how prices have gone up, but I agree that's an expensive turn all-in-all. It can be tricky to cover baseline expenses on smaller (450ft2) units, if the rent is low. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 30 posts · 15 votes
    3y

    @Greg R.

    I just went through this experience with a PM for a home my wife and I occupied prior to renting it. Within the past 3 years we had bought all new appliances, repainted the entire home, and installed new flooring throughout.

    The maintenance quote after a tenant had already signed a lease was over $5k not including cleaning or make ready. When I pushed back on the work they quoted they then call me a slumlord.

    There are good PMs and bad PMs. The best ones make money off of good relationships and not off of 1 time hits for maintenance. Getting out their processes is key and connecting with a current client of theirs is also key.

    Good luck but bid out the work to other contractors or a contractor you trust in order to see what needs to be done if you are unable to put your own eyes on it.

    Best of luck!

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    There are two issues, the scope of work and the cost to do it. In my experience most PMs highly over specify the scope. Of course it makes it easier to get a tenant and their job easier. But you can push back on the scope. You can tell them to leave out the floor, do only touch up paint, etc and reduce the scope to something basic needed to rent the place. This of course depends on your market. If you have a luxury rental, it won't work. But for a lower B or C class rental no point doing all this so the next tenant can mess it up again. As for the cost itself, its hard to push back. You can get your own contractor to come give a bid for comparison but that will piss of your PM (even though it shouldn't)

  • Specialist · Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 110 posts · 102 votes
    3y

    This might be high labor cost for that work here in Ohio, but looks like you're in San Diego, so actually seems spot on for the area (which might be too much, but everything there costs too much!)

    Source: I lived in socal 35 years

    If you're struggling with this you may want to ask yourself a few questions. Have you looked at the cost of subcontracting it out to licensed tradesmen and overseeing the project yourself? Do you think you'd spend less or more doing that? How far out are those people booked? How much of your time would that take to manage? How much more downtime will the unit have by coordinating multiple contractors? What is your own time worth to do this stuff yourself? What did you originally budget for turnover costs?

    Answering these questions might give you a better idea of how to value their service vs your expectations. 

    Of course we all like to save money here and there, but what is the real cost? Are we stepping over dollars to save pennies? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, only one that works best for you.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Karl B.:

    Yes, they're bleeping you. 

    You realize this is San Diego, right? Handyman prices are probably closer to $75-$90 an hour.

    @Greg R. the PM sent a maintenance company to look at the property and make suggestions. Why not just reject the suggestions and move on? Or hire your own maintenance company to cross-check them. I wouldn't spend a lot of time stressing over a suggestion; I either agree with it, disagree with it, or investigate more. Since we can't see all these issues and we don't know the cost of labor for this particular maintenance provider/company/handyman, it's hard to say whether you are being "ripped off" or if they have legitimate concerns about your property.

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    @Greg R. Still waiting for someone to comment on staining vinyl floor, I have never heard of this and to me it would just accentuate scratches? My question would not be with the prices but with what they identified that has to be done. 

    Did they send pictures or explain the issues. If you did a rehab 5 years ago why you need a new light fixture and the electric is wrong (if so don't use that electrician again) and faucets.  Not sure what your relationship with the PM but if this is the first turnover go over and take a look and see if you agree with the list and see if  you have the capacity to cross stuff off. Plug in the CO detector while you are there.

    Also lose the vertical blinds, for a sliding door consider a rod and curtains or replacement slats which is much less.

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Nathan Gesner I lived in Los Angeles and my handyman charged me $45 an hour; I'm sure I can find a competent handyman in San Diego who charges comparable to $45 an hour. Socal actually has bargains when it comes to tradespeople; I paid 30K to flip my house in Los Angeles when I sold it - there's no way I could have had all that work done in my Missouri or Pennsylvania markets for that price despite the latter places having a cheaper cost of living when it comes to most other things. 


  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    Not only are those prices high (even in San Diego, I was there over 40 years) but they seem to have little clue on what they're doing....

    Time for a new PM? Or a serious talk.....

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    3y

    I am in the San Diego market. 

    I find that list and associated prices absurd. If I had my PM do those tasks with their crew, I suspect it would be less than half of that (they have their own crew that does almost all maintenance items). If I did it using my handymen it would be a little cheaper than using z PM's crew and take a little longer. With San Diego rents, speed can be as critical as cost as daily rents add up fast. 2 weeks on some of my LTR units is over $2k and in high season some STR units can be over $5k in 2 weeks. Speed = money. If I did it myself it would be cheapest but take the longest. Even when I think I have a lull in my schedule, something will pop up and kill my planned schedule.

    My STR PM does LTR PM. He is optimistic on timelines but except for that I have been happy with him and happy with his maintenance crew. He is currently only coastal. Where is the unit located?

    Good luck

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y

    Ok people, I am going to pull back the PM curtain in hopes to dispel some of these ridiculous assumptions and misconceptions. @Nathan Gesner has already laid down some of this but seems few are picking up on it. 

    First of all, all this BS saying a PM is out to get someone because "oohh, aahh, gonna get-em for a few hundred on this" is just asinine. NO! We have 0 interest in drumming up some big time-suck and distraction to drive what is truly a very small amount of added $. 

    Here is the reality. As a legit PM Company our #1 focus is TIME EFFICENCY. And that makes profits for EVERYONE. 

    Someone has a ~$4k improvement work to be done. So what happens in efforts to get 17 bid's to try and save $1k, 25% off the job. THAT TAKES TIME. Easily expect it to burn up an extra month just doing that, because in case you havn't noticed vendors are not sitting around with nothing to do, THERE BUSY, more demand then supply for vendors, so yes, that's a month burnt up on feeling out prices. And with rent's at $2k, congratulation, you just threw away $2k to save $1k, a 100% NEGATIVE ROI.  

    Often we Pro PM's have to educate our novice Landlords of this math paradigm, it is called Opportunity Cost. The cost of time, in exploring discount potential. We have to guesstimate the legitimacy of that exploration, how much it could save, and then cost of time to do so.     Ever hear of the math that if Bill Gates saw a $100 bill on the ground when walking into work, it would cost him almost $200 to stop and pick that up? Yup. 

    As a Professional PM Company we are focused on efficiency and performance, FULL-STOP. It's literally in our name; PROPERTY MANAGEMENT. No, we are not focused on making $ on maintenance, if we were, we would stop doing PM and just be a Remodeling Company! More then enough work to do it. 

    Maintenance is a big pain in our azz, arguably the #1 pain in our azz because it is blocking our ability to get a property leased which we DO make $ on, and in maintenance we have all this brain-damage and time-suck of getting vendors out, scope of work, communicating with owner etc etc.. The 10% fee on it is to MITIGATE our time-suck. Do the math, it's $400 on a $4k project, exactly how many labor hours do you think $400 covers? And before any idiotic comments of oh $400 covers a lot for a $15hr person NO, it doesn't, because after all the lovely costs of employment a $15hr person DOES NOT COST $15hr, there $30+. Don't believe me, ask an accountant, there is like 14 tax's paid on employees or some ridiculous #, I don't count em anymore but it's a list, a loooong list. 

    So most often even after a 10% fee we are loosing $ on maintenance. So yeah, we want that done and out of our lives and back to the business ASAP. 

    Our focus on maintenance is EFFICENCY. The cheapest person is ALWAYS a hack. There going to do crap work, mess things up, take longer because we need them back out 3 times to fix what they messed up, and it ends up costing MORE.    The most expensive is some retail shop, who doesn't "get" rental property, and the property owner (rightfully) will be up in arms over the price blowing up our e-mail/phone demanding answers and guess what, will quit services so we did all that for nothing because we make $ on PROPERTY MANAGEMENT. 

    The answer is somewhere in the middle. Again, our EFFICENCY focus. That combination of quality and price, better known as VALUE. 

    So yes, when we find a VALUE service vendor, we build relationships, reoccurring services. We come to a place of getting them out to a property 1st, vs 17 bids. Because again, 17 bids LOOSES $ FOR EVERYONE. 

    And here is the deal, from the worst novice clients I hear the #1 stupid answer of "when I did it myself it only cost ___" well DUH, of course it did, your "guy" was FREE! Nothing can compete with free. So yeah, it's gonna cost more. 

    And here is the thing, EVERY Pro PM Company I know, mine included, is more then happy for a Property Owner to SELF-CONTRACT the work. Please, have it, and thank you very much. Again, we are a PM Company NOT a Remodeling Company. Our maintenance service is for your CONVENIENCE, it sure as hell isn't for ours, it's our #1 loss leader. Again, the time-suck of it all. 

    Getting quality vendors today is hard, wicked hard. The #1 reason I loose vendors today is because they tell me they have crossed over into more retail and are just flooded with high paying retail. I applaud them, it's great for them, I don't blame them 1 bit, I would too in there shoes. It's very hard for us Pro PM's to get the quality vendors, it's constant effort at recruiting because we basically have to find rising star's over and over and over again. 

    Reality is our best most profitable operations is a property with LT tenant in place, things humming along on cruse control. THAT's efficient time. And end of day that is what we are selling, TIME. We have a locked in $ with a landlord which means our internal labor time is locked, to make $ we have to use less to create a profit margin, and enough to mitigate those times when it's more. And to RETAIN clients. 

    FYI, we have ~2,000 properties under management today in the T.C. market center, that is where I am coming from in things. A person will never get close to this mark ever without being a master of efficiency for all. Efficiency = $'s. 

    Our goal is to get the most $ for rents on a property, maki it as passive as humanly possible, for as long as humanly possible. And when maintenance items come up, to keep them to ROI as much as humanly possible, keep it EFFICENT as humanly possible, and get back to the primary ASAP. And RETAIN clients which requires ROI for our clients. It's just that simple.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @James Hamling:

    Ok people, I am going to pull back the PM curtain in hopes to dispel some of these ridiculous assumptions and misconceptions. @Nathan Gesner has already laid down some of this but seems few are picking up on it. 

    First of all, all this BS saying a PM is out to get someone because "oohh, aahh, gonna get-em for a few hundred on this" is just asinine. NO! We have 0 interest in drumming up some big time-suck and distraction to drive what is truly a very small amount of added $. 

    Here is the reality. As a legit PM Company our #1 focus is TIME EFFICENCY. And that makes profits for EVERYONE. 

    Someone has a ~$4k improvement work to be done. So what happens in efforts to get 17 bid's to try and save $1k, 25% off the job. THAT TAKES TIME. Easily expect it to burn up an extra month just doing that, because in case you havn't noticed vendors are not sitting around with nothing to do, THERE BUSY, more demand then supply for vendors, so yes, that's a month burnt up on feeling out prices. And with rent's at $2k, congratulation, you just threw away $2k to save $1k, a 100% NEGATIVE ROI.  

    Often we Pro PM's have to educate our novice Landlords of this math paradigm, it is called Opportunity Cost. The cost of time, in exploring discount potential. We have to guesstimate the legitimacy of that exploration, how much it could save, and then cost of time to do so.     Ever hear of the math that if Bill Gates saw a $100 bill on the ground when walking into work, it would cost him almost $200 to stop and pick that up? Yup. 

    As a Professional PM Company we are focused on efficiency and performance, FULL-STOP. It's literally in our name; PROPERTY MANAGEMENT. No, we are not focused on making $ on maintenance, if we were, we would stop doing PM and just be a Remodeling Company! More then enough work to do it. 

    Maintenance is a big pain in our azz, arguably the #1 pain in our azz because it is blocking our ability to get a property leased which we DO make $ on, and in maintenance we have all this brain-damage and time-suck of getting vendors out, scope of work, communicating with owner etc etc.. The 10% fee on it is to MITIGATE our time-suck. Do the math, it's $400 on a $4k project, exactly how many labor hours do you think $400 covers? And before any idiotic comments of oh $400 covers a lot for a $15hr person NO, it doesn't, because after all the lovely costs of employment a $15hr person DOES NOT COST $15hr, there $30+. Don't believe me, ask an accountant, there is like 14 tax's paid on employees or some ridiculous #, I don't count em anymore but it's a list, a loooong list. 

    So most often even after a 10% fee we are loosing $ on maintenance. So yeah, we want that done and out of our lives and back to the business ASAP. 

    Our focus on maintenance is EFFICENCY. The cheapest person is ALWAYS a hack. There going to do crap work, mess things up, take longer because we need them back out 3 times to fix what they messed up, and it ends up costing MORE.    The most expensive is some retail shop, who doesn't "get" rental property, and the property owner (rightfully) will be up in arms over the price blowing up our e-mail/phone demanding answers and guess what, will quit services so we did all that for nothing because we make $ on PROPERTY MANAGEMENT. 

    The answer is somewhere in the middle. Again, our EFFICENCY focus. That combination of quality and price, better known as VALUE. 

    So yes, when we find a VALUE service vendor, we build relationships, reoccurring services. We come to a place of getting them out to a property 1st, vs 17 bids. Because again, 17 bids LOOSES $ FOR EVERYONE. 

    And here is the deal, from the worst novice clients I hear the #1 stupid answer of "when I did it myself it only cost ___" well DUH, of course it did, your "guy" was FREE! Nothing can compete with free. So yeah, it's gonna cost more. 

    And here is the thing, EVERY Pro PM Company I know, mine included, is more then happy for a Property Owner to SELF-CONTRACT the work. Please, have it, and thank you very much. Again, we are a PM Company NOT a Remodeling Company. Our maintenance service is for your CONVENIENCE, it sure as hell isn't for ours, it's our #1 loss leader. Again, the time-suck of it all. 

    Getting quality vendors today is hard, wicked hard. The #1 reason I loose vendors today is because they tell me they have crossed over into more retail and are just flooded with high paying retail. I applaud them, it's great for them, I don't blame them 1 bit, I would too in there shoes. It's very hard for us Pro PM's to get the quality vendors, it's constant effort at recruiting because we basically have to find rising star's over and over and over again. 

    Reality is our best most profitable operations is a property with LT tenant in place, things humming along on cruse control. THAT's efficient time. And end of day that is what we are selling, TIME. We have a locked in $ with a landlord which means our internal labor time is locked, to make $ we have to use less to create a profit margin, and enough to mitigate those times when it's more. And to RETAIN clients. 

    FYI, we have ~2,000 properties under management today in the T.C. market center, that is where I am coming from in things. A person will never get close to this mark ever without being a master of efficiency for all. Efficiency = $'s. 

    Our goal is to get the most $ for rents on a property, maki it as passive as humanly possible, for as long as humanly possible. And when maintenance items come up, to keep them to ROI as much as humanly possible, keep it EFFICENT as humanly possible, and get back to the primary ASAP. And RETAIN clients which requires ROI for our clients. It's just that simple.


     I agree with a lot of what you say especially about time versus money and the associated costs (I covered this in my earlier response).  I also agree labor costs are higher than hourly wage as you explained well.

    However, 1) My PM, in the same town, would do that list for less than 50% of that quote.  2) My PM does not mark up the maintenance/repair costs.  They charge a PM fee that includes managing their team for maintenance/repair items.  

    I am OK with both scenarios: 1) charge a little extra for flat PM and not charge for the various items where they could itemize the smaller costs or 2) charge less for the PM and charge for the various itemized smaller costs.  

    In the end the PM is likely making a similar amount of money as PMs (contrary to many owner views) are not getting wealthy just on their PM fees.  As long as all parties understand what the costs will be (i.e. maintenance markup is documented) there is no wrong approach.

    Note my PM has their own maintenance employees that are competent.  I can make work orders that are not just maintenance.  For example, last month I made a request to paint stripes for parking because vehicles were parking in positions that did not allow optimal use of the parking lot.  In about a week, because it was low priority, they painted the stripes and they are perfect.  5 parking spots was less than $150.  Very reasonable cost (tape and paint, remove tape).

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