Would you consider this 10plex and if so, at what price?

Would you consider this 10plex and if so, at what price?

Member since 2010 · 7 posts · 2 votes

I am a new investor and have two properties (3/2 SFR in middle class neighborhood and a 2/1 1/2 duplex in low income neighborhood) in the Lafayette, LA metro area.

I am interested in apartment complexes because of the cashflow and not having to deal with 100% vacancies.

I came across a 10 plex for sale (C property)in a small town about 25 minutes away. I've currently got it under contract for $176k, but the financials are very weak.

Seller bought it in 2004 and spent 2004 - 2007 rehabbing it. He gutted it and put in all new plumbing, electrical, fixtures, sheet rock, flooring, appliances, etc. The building is in great shape and two apartments remain unfinished.

There are 8 2/1 apts and 2 1/1 apts. The apartments that are left to be finished are a 1 bedroom that needs cosmetics (about $3k) and a 2 bedroom that has had plumbing installed, but still needs sheetrock and everything else.

Since that time he has had it on the market starting at $340k until I put an offer on it at $180k.

I requested to see all the financial information from 2009 - now. I only received 2010 and 2011 data because it was self-managed before that point and he isn't forthcoming with the data.

In 2010, there were only 2 apts rented and the property lost money. I have been told that the property management company he was using at the time is not very responsive to low-income properties. The property manager broke off from that company in Dec 2011 and since that time has filled 7 units (one of which moved out last month).

There has also been problems with loitering and a lot of police calls to the property for disturbances. But, the property manager said that they have worked out an agreement with the police (the station is two blocks down) and they have stopped the loitering and things have gotten better in the last few months.

Since this year, the property is taking in an average of $3000 per month. To attract tenants, they offered all bills paid on 3 of the 2 bed. and they are charging $550 a month. Property Manager said the electricity deposit in the town is $300 and that people can't afford all of that up front. There is also section 8 tenant in 1 paying $460, and another tenant paying $375 without electricity. Then, there is a one bedroom renting all bills paid for $450.

There are not a lot of apts in this town, but the ones that I called on rent a 2 bed. for $550 - $650 w/o electricity and have a waiting list.

The seller is motivated as he had grand schemes to rehab this place and make a killing and it hasn't happened. He has had it under contract over the years a few times, but the price was too high.

I still think the price is too high and I am nervous because the property has lost money every year from what I can tell from his tax return (retained earnings of -85k since 2004).

I have also had a hard time doing the deal analysis, since their seems to have been such poor management and the financial data is all over the place.

Here are the facts:

Purchase Price currently : 176K
Property taxes (after adj.) $1300
Property Insurance (incl Liability) $3000
Gross Rents (using current model and only 6 rented) $34910
NOI: $17,200 (as best I can figure. this includes $100/mo per apt for electricity, 10% management, 75% finders fee and turnover every 8 months), $200/mo water, 10% maintenance.
Mortgage with 20% down at 6.5% for 20 years = $1050

Sorry this has been so long. Thanks for your help and advice...

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  • Member since 2010 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    I forgot to add in Insurance and Taxes into NOI:$21500

  • Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes
    15y

    Natalie,
    we must calculate with 100% gross income, so if propertie get $34,910 with 6 rented, propertie will get $58,000 if 10 rented.

    $58,000 GOI - 55% expenses (my rule) = $26,100 NOI, so we have an 15% CAP here, good deal ...

    ... but if you have many troubles with tenants and/or police this can be hell for you.

    -Uwe

  • Real Estate Investor · Hudson, NH · Member since 2011 · 76 posts · 25 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Uwe S.:
    Natalie,
    we must calculate with 100% gross income, so if propertie get $34,910 with 6 rented, propertie will get $58,000 if 10 rented.

    $58,000 GOI - 55% expenses (my rule) = $26,100 NOI, so we have an 15% CAP here, good deal ...

    ... but if you have many troubles with tenants and/or police this can be hell for you.

    -Uwe

    Sorry Uwe, but your numbers aren't accurate in this case. Yes, you should calculate the gross income. But, you must take into account the vacancy factor. In this case 30% or more!!!

    I calculate it this way. I'll use your $58,000 Gross number for the example

    $58,000
    -$17,400 (30% vacancy factor)
    -------------------
    $40,600 Net Rent
    -$4,060 (10% maintenance reserve)
    -$4,060 (10% management)
    -$4,300 (Taxes/Ins)
    -$12,000 (electric) Natilie said $100 unit/per month
    -$ 2,400 (Water) if $200 a month is right, I project higher for 10 units.
    _____________
    $13,780 NOI @ 10% cap rate = purchase price $137,800

    Given the trouble you have already listed about this property. I would not recommend this deal!

  • Real Estate Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2011 · 189 posts · 33 votes
    15y

    If you are looking for a turnkey property, this doesn't sound like it.
    If you know that you are getting into a property that you will need to actually manage better at the beginning (and not just rely on that one property manager), then it sounds fine to me.

    My major concerns would be building integrity, if thats good, then the tenant situation is up to you to fix. It obviously has a lower value since the current tenant portfolio needs to be shaken up a little and brought up to snuff, but you are already getting it down from 340K asking to $176K.

    You just need to invest some time in the beginning to turn around the renter situation and get occupancy higher.

  • Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2011 · 1 post · 0 votes
    15y

    Hi,
    I am a newbie but it sounds like there are neighborhood problems. It looks like a bad deal to me. Better tenants will be hesitant to move into a neighborhood in which they feel unsafe.
    I think it is a bad idea generally to underbid the going rates, because it leads to more iffy tenants who cannot afford the better rates. Kind of like the choice between a 2-star hotel and a 3-star hotel.
    If you go with this, see if you can find some way to upgrade the curb appeal, so your place becomes the place people are waiting to get into. Charging the most reasonable rates in town will tend to bleed you slowly dry. There will be no money for upkeep, and the building looking worse over time will cause the good tenants to move out.

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 103 posts · 22 votes
    15y

    Figuring 30% vacancy seems high to me. In my markets, I always figure 3%, but I know that's completely maintainable here. In fact, I'm currently at 0% vacancy for all of the units.

    However, I'd figure at something lower. Find out what the market vacancy is for the area, or a comparably-sized city. From there, you might add on some for your issues with the property. With good management, though, it isn't hard to lease an apartment. Good Craigslist ads with pictures and maybe signs if you have to.

    All utilities paid isn't the best way to get people, since they always look at the rent. There's a thread somewhere for utilities-paid apartments, and general consensus is that lower rents is better than utilities-paid apartments.

    There's always also discounting the apartments and taking below-market rents just to get the places rented out. In all honesty, taking $50/month less than market is worth it, if you don't think you can rent out the apartments.

    This deal seems like it comes down to the area and the vacancy. You've got a couple grand worth of work to go into two of those apartments, but you just need to finish those up, and it shouldn't take long for that. If you have it under contract right now, you need to make your decisions soon. I don't know what you have down in earnest money right now, but if you have a good amount down, you need to make the decision soon.

  • Homeowner · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2011 · 207 posts · 73 votes
    15y

    Sorry Brian, but you're actually the one incorrect. Uwe has applied the 50% rule (55% in this case because he is being conservative), which includes vacancy. When using the 50% rule you apply it towards the maximum scheduled rent and let the division work its magic. You don't need to take vacancy off the top, and then work down.
  • Real Estate Investor · Hudson, NH · Member since 2011 · 76 posts · 25 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Max Drizin:
    Figuring 30% vacancy seems high to me. In my markets, I always figure 3%, but I know that's completely maintainable here. In fact, I'm currently at 0% vacancy for all of the units.

    Of course 30% is high, but I'm just using the info given. I normally use 5%-10% depending on area.

    Originally posted by Natalie:
    In 2010, there were only 2 apts rented and the property lost money. I have been told that the property management company he was using at the time is not very responsive to low-income properties. The property manager broke off from that company in Dec 2011 and since that time has filled 7 units (one of which moved out last month).

    So, one of two problems. The property manager is incompetent. Or, the building is cancerous. If units are turning over in 6 months, I am inclined to believe the latter.

    Lastly, We are valuing the property for cash flow as it sits for purchase today. Don't hedge on what it is worth in the future with new management and rehab. If you know that the vacancy factor is 30%, then that's what it is.

    Paying 176K plus rehab for this property is a mistake!

  • Real Estate Investor · Hudson, NH · Member since 2011 · 76 posts · 25 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Brendan J.:

    Sorry Brian, but you're actually the one incorrect. Uwe has applied the 50% rule (55% in this case because he is being conservative), which includes vacancy. When using the 50% rule you apply it towards the maximum scheduled rent and let the division work its magic. You don't need to take vacancy off the top, and then work down.

    Sorry, But I don't agree. I realize he is using the 50% rule, which is a good general guideline for most cases. Using it in this case would be extremely costly.

  • Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes
    15y

    Brian,

    I see one mistake on your post, what you bid if a propertie vacant? $0? No I guess.
    You must calculate with normal market and after your result you must decide if the deal is it worth.

    Possible CAP of 15% is good and even more so with 20% downpayment. Natalie must decide with their DD if deal is okay or not. Numbers looking good for me but don´t know the neighborhood so only "maybe" for me.

    -Uwe

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    15y

    The key here is the AREA.You say it's in town.

    I wouldn't count the rents in a better area of town.You have already said they have waiting lists and rents are higher in better parts of town.

    If I was a renter I would pay more to be in a safe place as well.When you have low income tenants you have more turnover,problems,and damage.

    Many of these tenants are unstable sometimes mentally and job wise.Their life isn't stable so neither is their income.

    I am not saying this to be the case with all low income tenants but based on averages this is the case many times.

    You can price in the risk for this property.I wouldn't pay 178,000 based on what you said just because of the area you describe.Plus the other units you have to dump in immediate cash to get them rent ready.

    On the utilities if they are not separately metered then don't spend the money if tenants are used to utilities included.They will just go down the street.You have to get right down to the heart of WHY this property has had so many problems in addition to just it's location over the years.

    Have you pulled a crime report for that complex?? Violent versus non violent crimes and frequency of occurance.

    I would want to know in a 1 mile ring radius what the crime looks like as well.You will see a trend of an areas stabilized,going down fast,or coming back up on the mend.

    When you go to resell you will have to sell at a very high cap to get high risk investors to purchase the property from you.

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 671 votes
    15y

    I would pass on this. Unless you do low-income stuff for a living you could be in for a 10 unit world or hurt. Who is going to manage this? Can you find any places in a better part of town even if they makes less money on paper? How much is the rehab and how many bids do you have?

  • Member since 2010 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Wow! Thanks for all of your responses!

    To answer a few questions:
    1. My current property manager mostly manages low-income and would be my property manager if I decided to buy this. However, this is outside of his area and although he is willing to do it, he says it is risky because of all of the unknowns for both of us.
    2. I haven't priced the rehabs because I wanted to see if it made sense with just 8 units. The 2 units that need rehab have been in the same condition for at least 2 years. The seller never finished them since he wasn't able to rent out the other 8 consistently. Ballpark for the 1 bedroom is $3000. My dad and my husband would do the work, so mainly it would just be the materials. The other apartment needs everything and my property manager said he thought it would be at least $10k to get it finished.
    3. I have spoken to the Police about this property and the area. They said that there are a lot of calls to the property - that they are disturbances/fights outside mainly. They said there has been no reports of drugs or drug activity there.
    The area in general is low-income, very poor, etc. There is not a lot of job growth and the population has decreased slightly (1%) over the past 10 years.

    I have decided to pass on this as it is outside my area and most importantly, my property manager's area and therefore too risky.

  • Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Natalie Kondratenko:
    Wow! Thanks for all of your responses! ...

    3. I have spoken to the Police about this property and the area. They said that there are a lot of calls to the property - that they are disturbances/fights outside mainly. They said there has been no reports of drugs or drug activity there.
    The area in general is low-income, very poor, etc. There is not a lot of job growth and the population has decreased slightly (1%) over the past 10 years.

    I have decided to pass on this as it is outside my area and most importantly, my property manager's area and therefore too risky.

    Right choice in this case Natalie.
    Fighting outside of propertie is not right area for an good investor.

    You will find an other one.

    -Uwe

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 81 posts · 97 votes
    15y

    I start looking at deals when there's a 25% ROI. I start buying somewhere above that. It does make a difference if I feel like I can turn the prperty around and create a larger spread from something the current owner is not doing or if the current owner is not managing the property right. Can I raise rents? Can a seperate meters on a place that has one meter fore the entire complex? Can I cut expensies?Can I increase the occupancy rate due to my superior marketing savvy? Can I weed out the trash tenants and make the place a better place to live where people will pay more and stay longer?

    --Mitch Stephen--

    --Mitch Stephen--

  • Real Estate Investor · Hudson, NH · Member since 2011 · 76 posts · 25 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Uwe S.:
    I see one mistake on your post, what you bid if a propertie vacant? $0? No I guess.
    You must calculate with normal market and after your result you must decide if the deal is it worth.

    Possible CAP of 15% is good and even more so with 20% downpayment. Natalie must decide with their DD if deal is okay or not. Numbers looking good for me but don´t know the neighborhood so only "maybe" for me.

    I am going to give this one more shot because I think this goes beyond just this deal.

    To answer your question. No, I do not bid $0 for the property, but I also don't give them the benefit of full vacancy for having done none of the work, as your numbers do.

    That's exactly what the 50% rule is... A Magic Trick to make your cash flow disappear! This forum greatly exaggerates and promotes the 50% rule as some sort of Golden formula to value Multi unit property. I concede, that it is a good basic tool to get an idea of property value when there is absolutely no other information available.

    However, In this case, We had two years of data! Are we supposed to just throw that out for the sake of using the 50% rule? There was $12,000 in utilities! There is no way to factor in that type of extreme number using the 50% rule.

    Please, when seriously looking at multi property, take the extra step and do the math! It takes an extra 2 minutes and in this case would have been the difference between cash flow and an alligator.

    Uwe, I'm not trying to bash. I an merely pointing out to you and other potential onlookers that you could potentially be giving away thousands of dollars!

    In this case alone, using both our NOI's @ a standard 10% cap rate, we were over $130K apart on purchase value!

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 103 posts · 22 votes
    15y

    I have to agree with Brian. The 50% rule is a great system when you see a property and some rents, and nothing else. I can go visit a property, get some information from the agent or the seller, and not pester them too much if I'm just looking. My goal is always to get enough information to see if I want to look further.

    If I was a seller, I would hate to have to give out every bit of financial information to every remotely-interested buyer, it just isn't worth the hassle. 90% of people will just waste my time.

    With that mindset, I can go to a seller and ask the purchase price, or I can estimate everything from what's listed in the MLS or on Craigslist. I really don't want to have to call/deal with people if I don't have to, so I try my best to make the most informed decision.

    But I'm digressing, as always. Since we have all of the expenses, or at least enough to do the rest ourselves, we shouldn't be using 50%. We should be plugging in the numbers as they are and seeing how it is. I'll have an edited post with a pro forma in a minute.

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 103 posts · 22 votes
    15y

    Ok so the revision thing is weird. Caveats: everything in here is probably wrong, I pulled most of the information from the first post, it has full rental with 10% vacancy. In it's current state, I wouldn't show this to an investor or a bank. Don't kill me please.

    Five-year pro forma

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