$135K Fix and Flip Profit In Seattle WA! Success or Not?

$135K Fix and Flip Profit In Seattle WA! Success or Not?

Tarl YarberPro Member
Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes

Hey BP!  I have not posted in BP for many months, and I miss it.  I really enjoy posting topics that break down our failures and troubles so that others can learn from them.

Based on the title of this post...$135k Fix and Flip Profit in Seattle WA! Success or Not?...you may first think "wtf? you made $135k and you are asking if its a success or not? That's BS!"  

I would think the same thing, however I believe we got lucky.  I believe the market saved us on this one, on top of how we structured the purchase.   Where we failed was in the execution of the project, managing the rehab, hiring the WRONG contractors, and having far too many projects going on at once. So Please read on and let me know if you think this was a success or not?  Hopefully you can learn from our challenges!

Before Pics!!  (After is at the bottom of post)

The Crack Head House!

We always come up with clever names for our houses.  Can you guess why this one is named Crack Head?  Thats right, we bought it from a major drug attic who housed lots of crack heads in it where they were trying to rehab the house themselves for the past five years.  The man we purchased it from kept showing up throughout the course of us owning the house, trying to get in, stealing stuff, and looking for more drugs! Fun.  Its a bummer dealing with guys like this...But its how you get the best deals!  Seattle is full of charming homes, and people like these.

We acquired this seattle house directly from a wholesaler who actually beat us out of our negotiations with the seller directly.  Funny how things work.  We lose the negotiation, we wanted it for $395k, and through a series of very odd events, a wholesaler ended up beating us out of the negotiations.  BUT the funny thing is, he got the crack head to accept $385k instead of our $395k.  AND THEN the wholesaler, not knowing we were the ones competing, sent it to us (we regularly buy from him), for $395k!  So in the end, we got the house for the price we wanted...so weird.

The Initial Numbers for Seattle Crack Head:

As - Is: 830 sqft finished (1200 sqft unfinished attic and basement), 2 bed, 1 bath 1928 craftsman

Purchase: $395,000

Estimated initial Rehab costs: $120,000

Estimated time to complete: 6 months

Holding costs: Buy all cash by partnering with a local private lender 60/40 split (60% us, 40% him) and have no holding costs for project (this saved us...)

Estimated ARV: $650,000

After rehab needs: 4 bedroom 3 bath, 2020 sqft finished

Why did we buy cash and give up 40% of profit instead of leverage on our side?

We typically do not partner with people anymore.  And usually choose to use our own funds and or leverage with private money at 10% annual for the project. HOWEVER!  At the time of buying this house (June 2016), we also purchased NINE other homes in the same month (10 total) and this tapped us out of funds for the month.  We also were afraid of possibly running out of contractors and thought this may delay the project, making us want to have zero holding costs just in case.  Looking back, this was the only smart decision we made.  If we would have leveraged, we would have made LESS than we did partnering (house took us 12 months to complete...!)

Scope of Work 

  • Full gut job house - bring it to the studs
  • All new electrical and plumbing for entire house
  • Build three new decks
  • Finish basement fully, add bathroom and bedroom, and family room
  • Finish the attic space, add new Master Suite with full 5 piece master bath
  • New kitchen
  • New everything - flooring, windows, base/trim/doors, paint, tile, and any thing you can think of..yes, we did that too.

Where did it all go wrong...? And lessons to learn...

  • First, go back to the last BEFORE pic above.  See anything wrong with the power line?  The crack heads had been stealing power for over a year, so the city came and physically removed the power cable from the city (popping the meter didnt work), accumulating over a $7000 electrical bill and fine.  Crack heads paid that.  But we paid in having the city drag FORTY Five (45) Days to get our power reconnected...delays from the start.
  • We ran out of contractors...June 2016 was a super insane time for us and the rest of Seattle in the real estate market.  We bought 10 houses that month, and apparently so did everyone else.  Contractor prices soared, and finding contractor labor inside Seattle for that summer was the toughest id experienced.  We also had 8 other projects (18 total)...so that didnt help.  Because we bought so many so fast, we didnt plan ahead for labor and contractors...ended up struggling to find people and delaying the project
  • Bought too many COMPLICATED houses...we bought too many too fast.  Which normally isnt an issue for us.  However, we bought too many COMPLICATED houses too fast (full gut jobs to the studs, full remodels all systems, etc).  And due to the rising contractor costs and lack of affordable GC's in our area, we had begun GC'ing our own jobs.  With my self and only two other employees...we had a battle to fight up hill.
  • Our normal contractors jacked up prices...lots of stories here, but our electrician for instance, who at the time had done 38 houses for us, went from a normal 10k full re-wire on a house like this, to bidding OUT OF NOWHERE $22,000!! For the re-wire.  He literally just finished two houses for us for half of that.  Summer rates...well...he never got the job and never got another job since.
  • Our drywaller took 60 days to drywall...our trusty drywaller who did multiple houses for us, took nearly 60 days to fully complete the project.  Now, normally we would have let them go earlier...but we were stuck.  There was no one else to jump on it. The drywall was up, but it was HORRIBLE.  Waves everywhere, not completed in spots, poor texture.  We found out that he subbed out to the lowest bidder he could find, and then went on vacation...charge backs towards him, and no more jobs for him since.  However, delayed us again.
  • We hired the worst GC for all finishes...We personally handled all rough in for the house.  Mistake after mistake, mis management after mismangement, and finally sheet rock is up and we can get a GC in there to finish the rest (trim, doors, cabinets, tile, decks, fences, flooring).  We hired a new GC for us.  Smelled good, looked good, sounded good.  Good docs, everything in order.  So we took a chance...worst mistake.
    • We had no one else, so felt stuck
    • Only thing that saved us was SUPER SOLID contracts.  We make the GC sign OUR contracts (5 pages) and OUR SOWs (4 pages this house).  Saved us from litigation and major costs later in the job.
    • Contractor started December 2016, and we fired April 2017...having to rip our portions of their work, finish what they didnt, and back charge them for the rest.
    • We managed them almost daily.  Our contracts protected us.  We gave them every chance. Once our other jobs quieted down, we were able to fire the GC and sub things our selves
    • GC was not paying ANY of their subs or labor...we had to find the subs and get lien releases from each person and settle with them so they did not get screwed by the gc
    • GC attempted to sue us for the entire SOW budget.  
    • Our constant photos, docs, and contracts, and emails, got their attorney to drop the case completely
    • Delayed completion another 30 days after firing
  • Full rehab took us 11months to complete...12 months from start to finish for acquisition to disposition.  Can we now get long term capital gains since we had the house for 12months?  Im not a CPA, but i can tell you that by the letter of the tax code...NO.  Its still ordinary income, ask your accountant why that is.
  • The entire basement FLOODED after we finished it!! Seattle has water issues...the problem with buying houses in the summer, no rain.  In December 2016, after we just got done drywalling the entire basement, it flooded due to ground water rising.  We then had to install an interior french drain by breaking out the concrete, damaging the new drywall, and putting the drain system in...yay!
  • We mismanaged and this house took up so much of our mental power and physical power...the drain this property took from our focus and our team was the greatest loss.

Bottom Line

House took us 12 months to purchase, rehab and sell.  Closed today June 9th 2017, purchased June 6th 2016.  We had experienced the worst handling of a project my team has ever had.  We got lucky.  This could have been worse for us.  We could have leveraged and paid high holding costs.  We could have not used our contracts and been taken to the cleaners by the bad GC.  The market could have dropped.  We could have been WAY over budget, and i am still surprised we werent.  Everything that could have gone wrong, did.  Even right now we just found out we forgot to add a dryer vent! ;)

Final Numbers:

Final Rehab costs: $130,000 (10k over budget, despite issues)

Listed House: $600,000 (tactic here was list low in this hot market, lots of activity, sell for $650k)

House sold for $730,000 with 30 day closing and buyer willing to cover up to $60k out of pocket if low appraisal.  House appraised for $710k, buyer had to come with 20k out of pocket.

Total Profit of Project (rounded): $135,500

Our profit with 60%: $81,300

My final thoughts are that this house has profited us well.  But the time, headaches, mental energy, distraction from other jobs and opportunities was not worth the profit.  Not to mention the potential of ruining a private money relationship (partner on house).  Luckily, we have a great relationship with the lender, and they have been understanding and had our back the whole way. Despite this, the market saved us from wasting even more of our time.  We got lucky in my opinion.  A professional business like mine should never have failed this bad.  Almost all mistakes on this property can be pointed to one thing, my mis management of the project...period.

AFTER PHOTOS!!

See our event coming up here too at the Bigger Pockets Networking section: PNW Bad *** Expo - Networking events

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Most Popular Reply

Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y
Tarl Yarber your should be on a podcast
See this reply in the discussion

53 Replies

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  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y

    I just realised how long this post is...should have made it a blog :)

  • Investor · Amherst, OH · Member since 2017 · 79 posts · 43 votes
    9y

    Great post! You do some incredible work, the after pictures look amazing!  Looks like you learned a lot of lessons on this project and I have taken many notes to hopefully prevent me from making the same.  Thank you for sharing this story and congrats on making a nice profit after all the headaches!

  • Property Manager · Romeoville, IL · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Great post. Huge Success with all you worked through to ultimately get a return on your investment! Congrats

  • Kapolei, HI · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Amazing story. This could've been a made for TV movie! Thank you for sharing the "ugly" side of flipping. I hear a lot of suggestions to just "jump into investing" but I'm a fan of setting up a solid defense before going on the offensive. Got a lot of good info on how to protect myself in a flip deal. 

  • Tony WooldridgePro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Walla Walla, WA · Member since 2016 · 480 posts · 346 votes
    9y

    @Tarl Yarber, WOW, incredible story!  Sounds like you were destine to come out on top on that deal.  The big man clearly was looking out for you!  I most definitely see why you prefaced the "That's BS!" part.  First, let me say it is GR8 to have someone as humble as yourself to put yourself out there and share with BP Nation for all of us to learn through your trials and tribulations, for that a GR8 BIG thank you is in order!    THANK YOU! 

    You clearly have systems in place to handle most if not all situations as they arise which probably in my opinion had a lot to do with why you did end up on top of this deal. Most inexperienced investors probably would have baled and cut there losses so don't be to hard on yourself, you have that going for you not to mention ALL of that happened and you still made $81,300 so yeah it might have not been pretty but you PROFITED and correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the name of the game a ROI? So kudos's to you and your crew, I suspect that you will have more foresight in the future and have a better pulse on the contractor situation long before you are in this position again!

    So Tarl in my humble not so important opinion I would give you a Success (with a lot of bumps and bruises)! Thanks so much for sharing your story. I am inspired that as a Flipper myself will have systems in place someday that will help me weather the storm if and when it hits similar to your situation. Here is to wishing you a successful 2017 in your REI ventures! Congrats Brother!

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Tarl Yarber your should be on a podcast
  • NYC, NY · Member since 2016 · 619 posts · 456 votes
    9y

    It's a beauty.  In pix 4-6 (kit/lr), there are no potlights which are so common now.  Why?  And are these solar tubes or light fixtures?

  • Surveyor · Hemet, CA · Member since 2015 · 797 posts · 112 votes
    9y

    @Tarl Yarber awesome thread! Love the pictures to.  I wanted to ask you something do you recommend doing the improvements in things for a rental that you would do on a flip? I am starting a land lording business.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenixville, PA · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 44 votes
    9y

    Fantastic write-up.  Appreciate the full transparency.  Glad you came out ahead.  When does it make sense to assemble your own in-house crew to better manage costs?

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 37 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Thank goodness for the Seattle market!

  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Micah A.:

    Amazing story. This could've been a made for TV movie! Thank you for sharing the "ugly" side of flipping. I hear a lot of suggestions to just "jump into investing" but I'm a fan of setting up a solid defense before going on the offensive. Got a lot of good info on how to protect myself in a flip deal. 

     Thanks Micah!  Yeah, i should hit up HGTV for this house alone.  Make sure you have great contracts with your contractors!

  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shawn Lowery:

    Fantastic write-up.  Appreciate the full transparency.  Glad you came out ahead.  When does it make sense to assemble your own in-house crew to better manage costs?

     Great question Shawn!  We have asked that many times.  If we lived anywhere but WA, we may have started that a long time ago.  Besides Labor and Industries in WA, the real key time to think about having in house crews all depends on how busy you can keep them and how well you can manage them.  There are times you can save money for sure, but if you are not managing their time and productivity well or don't have houses to work on, you will bleed money.  I know some guys that have bought houses just to keep their in house crews busy, and not to make money. Thats a poor investment to me.  On top of that, are you managing the labor? If so, you are a contractor.  Or are you hiring someone to manage the labor?  All questions and strategies to think through.  If you are hiring and managing the in house guys, how many houses can you do at a time?  Only you know.

  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Robin Boyer:

    @Tarl Yarber awesome thread! Love the pictures to.  I wanted to ask you something do you recommend doing the improvements in things for a rental that you would do on a flip? I am starting a land lording business.

    Hey Robin. That all depends on your business model. If you are going for PURE cash flow and you have the money to put down and structure correctly, then do "rent ready" quality and look for pure numbers on ROI/CAP rate. However, I personally BRRRR any of my rentals. And in that formula, you must get a good solid appraisal at the end of the rehab in order to get your money back out of the property. This is most important if you are more concerned with having all your cash out of the property after the refinance. So I personally do Flip grade finishes in my rentals to get the highest appraised value at the re-fi. Where some BRRRR investors fail, is they run their Comps for ARV based on Flips, but then only put Rental grade finish, and the appraisal comes back lower than they wanted. So it all depends on your strategy.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    nice save. Market has saved many last 2 years myself included.  Any prop bought as inventory like you do is ordinary income no matter how long it takes you.   

  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    nice save. Market has saved many last 2 years myself included.  Any prop bought as inventory like you do is ordinary income no matter how long it takes you.   

     You read the post for sure! :)  Absolutely, I believe there are a good number of people investing in real estate that do not fully realize this or understand this part of the tax code.

  • Tarl YarberPro Member
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 401 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tony Wooldridge:

    @Tarl Yarber, 

    So Tarl in my humble not so important opinion I would give you a Success (with a lot of bumps and bruises)! Thanks so much for sharing your story. I am inspired that as a Flipper myself will have systems in place someday that will help me weather the storm if and when it hits similar to your situation. Here is to wishing you a successful 2017 in your REI ventures! Congrats Brother!

     Thanks Tony!  I appreciate your point of view for sure and your post on the thread.  It is very nice to have your perspective.  Hope your business is doing great!

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 93 votes
    9y

    @Tarl Yarber You still should make this a blog post! Feel free to hit me up if you're interested — [email protected]

  • Surveyor · Hemet, CA · Member since 2015 · 797 posts · 112 votes
    9y

    I would love to be able to flip a house sometime!

  • N/A · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    Wow, this scares the heck out of me. Would you mind sharing the GC contract you use? I have never used a contractor yet as I buy already completed homes to rent out.

  • Mantua, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 1 vote
    9y

    It looks like a good job after all!

    And a profit of 80+k is definitely nothing to complain about, right?

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    As someone who makes less than that every year in a full time job, I'd love to make that on one house in a year, knowing there were other houses as well. My first flip I did earlier this year got me a whopping $6k profit in 4 months. But I totally understand the perspective of the hassle not being worth it if you normally are able to make a 25%+ ROI on houses in a much shorter timeline with less hassle and stress.

  • Real Estate Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 408 posts · 242 votes
    9y

    @Tarl Yarber

    Long time no post. It's good to see you are still crushing it in the PNW!

    Took your advice on your last post about having systems and finish sheets. 

    Thanks for the post keep it up!

  • Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2015 · 41 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    @Tarl Yarber

    Great post. I had a very similar experience last year with a flip in Phinney Ridge. Bad GC resulted in 3 months delay of the project and ran nearly 40% more than the original estimate. Fortunately, we didn't have any holding cost and the market is so hot and we still came out ahead. 

  • Surveyor · Hemet, CA · Member since 2015 · 797 posts · 112 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tarl Yarber:
    Originally posted by @Robin Boyer:

    @Tarl Yarber awesome thread! Love the pictures to.  I wanted to ask you something do you recommend doing the improvements in things for a rental that you would do on a flip? I am starting a land lording business.

    Hey Robin. That all depends on your business model. If you are going for PURE cash flow and you have the money to put down and structure correctly, then do "rent ready" quality and look for pure numbers on ROI/CAP rate. However, I personally BRRRR any of my rentals. And in that formula, you must get a good solid appraisal at the end of the rehab in order to get your money back out of the property. This is most important if you are more concerned with having all your cash out of the property after the refinance. So I personally do Flip grade finishes in my rentals to get the highest appraised value at the re-fi. Where some BRRRR investors fail, is they run their Comps for ARV based on Flips, but then only put Rental grade finish, and the appraisal comes back lower than they wanted. So it all depends on your strategy.

     Every investor/landlord should know this! I am going to put flip grade in my notes. I also wanted to ask you do you use a real estate attorney for every buy and sell? We are selling a commercial property in Southern California for 1 million bucks and I got a attorney in the in the rotation and a bigger pocket member realitor helping on the sell. But will be coming a land lord soon it looks like. I have been looking at foreclosures lately.  But just as someone said there is a reason no one has bought those yet. What's your opinion thank you!

  • Surveyor · Hemet, CA · Member since 2015 · 797 posts · 112 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cooke:

    As someone who makes less than that every year in a full time job, I'd love to make that on one house in a year, knowing there were other houses as well. My first flip I did earlier this year got me a whopping $6k profit in 4 months. But I totally understand the perspective of the hassle not being worth it if you normally are able to make a 25%+ ROI on houses in a much shorter timeline with less hassle and stress.

     When appraisals come in at that kind 6k or so is it better to hold and rent or you as a flipper have to sell no matter what?

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