Whats required to legally change a house from a duplex to triplex

Whats required to legally change a house from a duplex to triplex

Ottawa, ontario · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 0 votes

Hello,

So I'm new to this whole thing and I'm looking for some advice. Red flags keep popping up for me but I don't know how valid they are. I'm currently looking at duplexes and triplexes in ontario. I plan on living in one of the units. I found a property listed as a duplex. One 3-bedroom apt, One 2-bedroom apt. I ended up going to go see it. It turns out that there is a 3rd unit in the back. It looks like the upstairs apartment was a 3 bedroom but was then converted into a 2-bedroom apartment and a bachelor apartment. There is a separate hydro meter run for it but it is disconnected because the owner said something about animals chewing the electrical wires in the attic. The roof was apparently fixed stopping animals from getting in but the electrical wasn't. I'm assuming this to be a $5000 fix. I think it might be an illegal unit as well since the property is being sold as a duplex.

From what my spreadsheet tells me, If i rent out that 3rd unit my cap rate would end up being about 5% with a theoretical cash flow of about $425/month. Assuming vacancy rate of 8.3%(double what my city's average vacancy rate it), and $3000/year in maintenance/repair/capex gives me a COC ROI of 5.13% but a total ROI of 10.03%(In terms if improvements to the building this number only assumes $5000 for the electrical fix but not the cost for making it a legal triplex). Other assumptions of revenue increase of 2%/year, operating expense increase of 2%/year and annual appreciation of 0%/year.

Some additional info and red flags. Owner is a numbered company. I put an offer down on it with some conditions and they came back with a counter offer removing a whole bunch of the conditions. Some of the conditions they want me to waive are: Phase 1 & 2 environmental study, they cant provide me with current tenant leases, can't provide building plans, surveys, fire certificate, previous building expenses. The last red flag was that the seller wanted me to make my ability to secure a mortgage/insurance/inspection conditional only for 10 days including holidays and weekends which is like 7 business days max. I've been pre-approved for a mortgage from a bank however but I dont know how that works for multifamilies

I ended up speaking with one of the tenants and they are the ones who told me about the electrical in the 3rd unit, the fixed roof. They also told me the owner/landlord doesn't care about the building at all.

I have so many questions I don't even know where to start so I'll just list some off.

1. What kind of costs can I expect to convert this from a legal duplex to a legal triplex. How would I begin to start the process? The area is zoned R4E. Since the unit is already built could I expect maybe 15k in fees or like 50k?

2. How would insurance handle it If I personally lived in the illegal unit.

3.How are mortgage rates affected for owner occupied duplexes/triplexes? I'm wanting to put 20% down minimum. Would I still get the interest rate of a single family home? Am I forced to get CMHC insurance?

4. Since the owner cant provide a fire certificate would a home inspector be able to tell me about fire code violations? I know the illegal unit on the 2nd floor only has 1 way out through the main door but would a window fire escape ladder that you can buy at home depot suffice as another way out of the unit?

5. Typically how long does it take to get a place inspected+insurance+mortgage.

6. Is this a bad deal? I think it might be but I'd like other peoples input. I feel like the owner is just trying to offload this building to a sucker.

Last but not least. my last red flag is with my realtor. Hasn't been able to spell my name correctly in 3 house offers even though I send my full name every time through email and correct it on any signed papers given to me. If this person can't take the time to spell my name correctly then I doubt the letter of offer is done correctly either.

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Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
9y

@Ryan F. for a 5% COC, I'd expect a perfect building and the landlord to polish the door knob on his way out so it is shiny when I arrive. Not some illegal rat invested nightmare with mystery tenants on a bogus contract. Deal with those kinds of issues if you're looking at a 20% CoC. Pass on this "deal".

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  • Investor · Madison, CT · Member since 2014 · 710 posts · 458 votes
    9y

    @Ryan F. Thanks for sharing this story. You are smart to bring this to the forums and get some input. Keep looking, and bring your questions here! Maybe someone else will have a more encouraging outlook for you, but based on what you've said, I would not pursue this deal any further.   Below are some of the concerning answers to your questions:

    1. If permits were never pulled for the 3rd unit, the zoning board could actually make you tear out the kitchen and bath to ensure it is not used as an independent unit in the future. Unlikely, but possible.

    2. I'm not an insurance expert, but my concern would be that insurance might not allow the illegal unit, period. Once they find out it's there, they might claim you lied about the property, and refuse to cover any claims. 

    3. Mortgage rates might be a little higher, but if you plan to live in one unit, then they will be comparable.

    4. In my state fire escape does count. I'm not sure if that's true everywhere.

    5. If they are asking you to do all of that in 10 days, I think they are just trying to steal your earnest money. That is too little time to get all that done no matter how prepared you are, and forces you to depend too much on too many other people to do their jobs quickly.

    6. I'm afraid so. You don't need to force this deal to work. Even if you didn't have all these red flags and good questions, the ROI is pretty low for this kind of investment. You don't have much room for something to go wrong, and with all the red flags and questions you have, something is bound to go wrong.

  • Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 225 posts · 46 votes
    9y

    I assume you are from Ottawa and it is very easy to find whats allowed through city of Ottawa website. You can even go to City and meet with them to explain about your plan and they will tell you if the zone permits triplex. If they do, then the cost is low. I think more in 20k range. 

    10 Days is too little time to close even if you are doing 100% cash. You will default and they will take your deposit. 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    My advise, based on your questions, is that you are no where ready to even begin to invest. You need a great deal more education before you start down this road.

    Investing is high risk and requires that you have all the answers before you start. This business is not designed as a learn as you go. Especially in Ontario. The first priority is for you to study and learn the Ontario RTA. This is a very pro tenant environment that will eat inexperienced landlords alive.

    Take 6 month to a year to learn every aspect of the business, get your team together once you know everything. Real Estate Agent, mortgage broker, insurance broker, lawyer, accountant. 

    When you can read the specs on a property, take a quick walk through, and know with certainty what you can pay to make consistent long term positive cash flow you are ready to risk it all.

  • Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    Hi Ryan, it sounds like you've done a lot of research on analyzing deals and your analysis for this place is impressive! It's just that you're starting off your career with a slightly more advanced property. I just went through a similar process this week looking at 2 duplexes in Kitchener and making an offer on one, which was not accepted because I was very cautious with two of the things you mentioned, no lease for existing tenant and zoning/title. My advice, if you want to pursue this deal is to run it by your lawyer and mortgage agent, and also consult with your insurance company. I would think R4 zoning means 4-plex or less, and environmental assessments are if zoned commercially, but could be wrong. The pros I mentioned will know. Don't rely only on your realtor. Even if they have integrity, they can't help but be biased by their financial stake in the deal. The mortgage agent also has a stake, but if it's a messy deal to for them to sell to a lender it's probably not worth their time so they'll be more straight up with you - but the lawyer has your back 100%. My two cents anyway!

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    9y

    @Ryan F. for a 5% COC, I'd expect a perfect building and the landlord to polish the door knob on his way out so it is shiny when I arrive. Not some illegal rat invested nightmare with mystery tenants on a bogus contract. Deal with those kinds of issues if you're looking at a 20% CoC. Pass on this "deal".

  • Investor · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 31 votes
    9y
    In Ottawa, it will depend of the size of the lot to determine if you can legally have a 3rd unit. With R4E zoning, you must have a 50'x100' lot to legally have a triplex. If the lot is less than 50'x100', but greater than 40'x90', then the city will allow you to add a 3rd unit in the basement only, through the secondary dwelling unit program. Also, if the building was previously a triplex and registered as such, you may have legal non conforming rights (grandfathered rule) to continue to operate the property as a triplex. Zoning can be confusing, but the city of Ottawa's websites help a lot. Message me if you have any more questions!
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