Sources for notes. Let's discuss!

Sources for notes. Let's discuss!

Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 3 votes

As a new investor in NPNs, I’m having trouble deciding which source I should pursue when shopping for notes. I’m currently not trying to build a business, just invest my own funds. I’m looking to buy 1-2 notes a month. Here are my thoughts:

Small banks/credit unions - A lot of upfront work to build the relationship and I may not have enough volume to justify the effort.

Small hedge funds - My gut feeling is that by the time that tape gets to the individual investor, most of the “cream” has been skimmed off. That’s not the end of the world as long as I can review a decent number of tapes each month and look for the few notes that meet my criteria. Also, what are the reputable funds and how do I find them? Are good hedge fund lists available for $$?

Exchanges/individual investors - I see two big problems. You have no idea who the sellers are, and the notes have so much exposure that they’re probably over-priced.

I realize sources are a tightly guarded secret, but some general guidelines would be helpful.

I’d love to hear from some of the more experienced players out there.

Thanks!

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Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y

I would say that most of us as relatively small note investors are scouring those tapes which are generally the tail end of larger tapes/portfolios distributed by smaller equity funds. Occassionally you can find a gem that meets your criteria on FCI Exchange or other online sources like NotesDirect. To get to the 'cream' have at least $500K available to take down a larger tape and then sell off those you don't want. 

As far as contacting banks and CUs, I don't find that to be an efficient use of any small investor's time.

Bob

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  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I would say that most of us as relatively small note investors are scouring those tapes which are generally the tail end of larger tapes/portfolios distributed by smaller equity funds. Occassionally you can find a gem that meets your criteria on FCI Exchange or other online sources like NotesDirect. To get to the 'cream' have at least $500K available to take down a larger tape and then sell off those you don't want. 

    As far as contacting banks and CUs, I don't find that to be an efficient use of any small investor's time.

    Bob

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Thanks Bob. I knew I could count on you to jump into the discussion! 

    How do I find the reputable funds so I can get on their list of approved buyers? Is it all through word of mouth?

  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I would start by attending note investing conferences like Papersource this April, NoteExpo in November and there are some regional ones too. This is an intimate niche where networking is imperative. At the conferences you will meet asset mangers AND other investors who may have notes to sell or other contacts to introduce you. I know, it takes time and expense, but I've found that I cannot expand my network of asset providers without meeting them in these environments. 

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Good advice. I'm already planning on attending Papersource. Thx.

  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Great, I look forward to meeting you there!

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    8y
    Peter Lipschutz When your buying 1-2 a month the question I have is how many is your limit ? Reason I ask is I see a lot of people get into notes and are all gung ho to realize the amount of work is involved (and cost). If your going to buy under 10 a year and not make it a business my recommendation will be to joint venture with someone. Of course you can do it on your own but when buying that little there will be notes you chase that you do not buy after dropping a few hundred dollars and as the BPO came in a lot lower or there was a title issue. You will have accounting costs, corporation costs software costs and your time. Not trying to sound negative, just giving you information to make an informed decision
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  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Also add monthly servicing fees, force placed insurance and possibly unpaid back taxes to @Chris Seveney's list....

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    8y

    @Bob Malecki - I didn’t even get into the legal costs as well, not only from borrowers but sellers as well. 

    Add in registering businesses as foreign entities in states, state licensing in some states..... the cost of your education to know all of that...

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    you may also want to have a pipe line into performing notes were you get paid day one and don't have any of these issues.. returns are a little less but the time and effort is negligible

    I suspect it would be about the same as you going in on a fund or JV.. because the sponsor has to make money.

    but the benefit is one note one investor so you do have some safety there.. Also if you stick with commercial paper the servicing aspect and dealing with the borrower is so much easier to the point of it basically being put your money in get your payments get paid off do it again.. no more than 1 hour into anyone note.

    AS I have said many times.. to me the NPN you either go big or go with a partner.

    And for the smaller investor you can buy single notes without being accredited ( per forming ) which takes a ton of risk out of the equation.

    I have very little patience so NPN and dealing with tapes and things that cant close because of this or that or change in policy or the asset is really sold or what have you.. that stuff drove me nuts.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2013 · 837 posts · 316 votes
    8y

    @Peter Lipschutz  You already have some sound feedback from @Bob Malecki @Chris Seveney and @Jay Hinrichs I agree that networking through conventions and investor clubs is an important part of establishing relationships for "off-market" notes in addition to viewing assets through the online MLS style note listing services.

    The suggestion to partner or JV with someone is very valid, especially for Non-performing notes. I like to see an investor have experience with 5 notes or REO type transactions before purchasing NPN.

    I suggest starting with performing notes and then branching into NPN. It's like running... you start with a 5k before you run a marathon.

    I'll also be at PaperSource in April and look forward to meeting you in person.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the great feedback. I hope to meet everyone at Papersource next month.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    8y

    I have had my most efficient experience dealing through real estate/bankruptcy/probate attorneys.  I do mostly digital marketing now as I don't want the grind of the huge volume of contacts it takes along with the time involved at looking at numerous notes that do not meet any of my criteria.  So much easier when it's just a matter of opening an email.  

    However, if I was starting out with no pipeline and didn't want to be just the money guy, i.e.wanted to 'do it myself ' I believe I would take the time to develop relationships with attorneys who are in the middle of transactions.  Many of my most profitable investments were attorney referrals for both notes and real property.  

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2018 · 47 posts · 21 votes
    8y

    Peter, 
    I'm a new investor in the note business. 
    I'm looking at places like GroundFloor and Watermark and getting familiar with the listings. Watermark doesn't list prices, but rather says, "Make offer". 
    Is there a general rule or pricing strategy for 1 vs 2nd, NPN vs. performing, etc?
    Does the LTV % also figure into how I would structure my offer? Any guidance here is much appreciated

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    8y
    Ramesh Nyberg I only invest in firsts. Typically you would take the lower of the UPB and fair market value (as-is not ARV) Their is he stair step method which used to be: 25% for assets under $25k, 35% for assets under $35k, 45% for assets under $45k and 55% above $45k. That has changed slightly and I am not seeing anything go for 25% anymore. 30-35% is the lowest and I would say all categories have gone up around 5%. This also depends greatly on location, vacant or occupied, judicial vs non judicial state etc Be happy to discuss further
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  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2018 · 47 posts · 21 votes
    8y

    Thanks so much Chris. I might pick your brain some more as I get closer to making a move

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