CREATING a note for 20% + Yield

CREATING a note for 20% + Yield

Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes

Most note investors originate new notes or purchase existing notes (sometimes at a discount to principal)..  To obtain an “outsize” return on originating notes the note holder needs to assume a larger than normal risk, or find a “niche” not currently being serviced, the note BUYER needs to negotiate a purchase at a larger than market discount.  While I have done  both in the past, it seems like it’s harder and harder to accomplish as time goes on.  Information and exposure has been increased radically in the last 10 years, and hence those killer deals don’t seem to be there anymore.

Fortunately for me, I had the good fortune to know and learn from the (imo) absolutely most knowledgeable, innovative, and talented note investor teacher back 40 some odd years ago.  Jimmy Napier (Invest in Debt) taught not only note buying and originating, but how to /WORK THE NOTE. Part of this was creating a high return investment from converting your current real estate holding to liquid note investments. 

A couple of months ago I had an opportunity to put one of Jimmy’s techniques into effect.  And while there are many ways to calculate the profitability of the note I created,  the resultant investment yields significantly more than purchasing an investment in the competitive market environment.

A summary of the deal is thus: My partners and I owned a 11,000 square foot retail/service center on a main thoroughfare in North West Houston.  For numerous reasons we decided to sell, and received at offer from the Church that was one of the occupants, for a price equal to appraised value.  Two appraisals were performed, and the values were $1,650,000, and $1,600,000.  At a $1,625,000 price, the church was going to borrower $1,000,000 from their bank at 9%.  The bank also wanted the church to maintain “compensating balances” in their checking account.

We had an existing $650,000 mortgage secured by the property, which had been paid down to $615,000.  The mortgage had 10 + years left at 4% interest.  Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a “wrap” (the bank has done significant business with us, and obviously wants to continue the relationship).  I should point out that I nor my 2 partners have given a personal guarantee on the note. 

So, I proposed this deal to the Church, which they accepted and we closed on April 2.  The Church pay us $1,7000,000 for the property (a premium of $75,000) to “entice” us to carry a larger note than the bank would.  The church put a down payments of $412,000 down, and we carried back a “wrap” note of $1,288,000 for 124 months (to “match” the length of time left on the underlying 4% note) at 9.999 % interest (had to be under 10% to comply with the board of directors of the Church without going for another vote), and payments of $16,701.57 monthly for 124 months.  Once our payments on the underlying note is approximately $4,000 this provides us a cash income of $12,700 monthly. Based on a CASH sale price we would have received $1,625,000 as a cash sale, less the $615,000 note payoff, or $1,010, 000 CASH,  By CREATING the wrap note, we received $412,000 Cash and the note.  So, for giving up $$598,000 in cash, we receive net of $12,700 monthly for 124 months.  Using TMV calculator, this is an annual return of 23% on the cash I would have received by a cash sale.  So, by creating and working a note, I’m able to create a 23% return.  This is possible on a 9.999 percent note because (1) I’m earning 9.999% on the $615,000 underlying note but paying out only 4% and (2) by providing seller financing I was able to obtain a $75,000 higher sale price. 

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Don Konipol:

Most note investors originate new notes or purchase existing notes (sometimes at a discount to principal)..  To obtain an “outsize” return on originating notes the note holder needs to assume a larger than normal risk, or find a “niche” not currently being serviced, the note BUYER needs to negotiate a purchase at a larger than market discount.  While I have done  both in the past, it seems like it’s harder and harder to accomplish as time goes on.  Information and exposure has been increased radically in the last 10 years, and hence those killer deals don’t seem to be there anymore.

Fortunately for me, I had the good fortune to know and learn from the (imo) absolutely most knowledgeable, innovative, and talented note investor teacher back 40 some odd years ago.  Jimmy Napier (Invest in Debt) taught not only note buying and originating, but how to /WORK THE NOTE. Part of this was creating a high return investment from converting your current real estate holding to liquid note investments. 

A couple of months ago I had an opportunity to put one of Jimmy’s techniques into effect.  And while there are many ways to calculate the profitability of the note I created,  the resultant investment yields significantly more than purchasing an investment in the competitive market environment.

A summary of the deal is thus: My partners and I owned a 11,000 square foot retail/service center on a main thoroughfare in North West Houston.  For numerous reasons we decided to sell, and received at offer from the Church that was one of the occupants, for a price equal to appraised value.  Two appraisals were performed, and the values were $1,650,000, and $1,600,000.  At a $1,625,000 price, the church was going to borrower $1,000,000 from their bank at 9%.  The bank also wanted the church to maintain “compensating balances” in their checking account.

We had an existing $650,000 mortgage secured by the property, which had been paid down to $615,000.  The mortgage had 10 + years left at 4% interest.  Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a “wrap” (the bank has done significant business with us, and obviously wants to continue the relationship).  I should point out that I nor my 2 partners have given a personal guarantee on the note. 

So, I proposed this deal to the Church, which they accepted and we closed on April 2.  The Church pay us $1,7000,000 for the property (a premium of $75,000) to “entice” us to carry a larger note than the bank would.  The church put a down payments of $412,000 down, and we carried back a “wrap” note of $1,288,000 for 124 months (to “match” the length of time left on the underlying 4% note) at 9.999 % interest (had to be under 10% to comply with the board of directors of the Church without going for another vote), and payments of $16,701.57 monthly for 124 months.  Once our payments on the underlying note is approximately $4,000 this provides us a cash income of $12,700 monthly. Based on a CASH sale price we would have received $1,625,000 as a cash sale, less the $615,000 note payoff, or $1,010, 000 CASH,  By CREATING the wrap note, we received $412,000 Cash and the note.  So, for giving up $$598,000 in cash, we receive net of $12,700 monthly for 124 months.  Using TMV calculator, this is an annual return of 23% on the cash I would have received by a cash sale.  So, by creating and working a note, I’m able to create a 23% return.  This is possible on a 9.999 percent note because (1) I’m earning 9.999% on the $615,000 underlying note but paying out only 4% and (2) by providing seller financing I was able to obtain a $75,000 higher sale price. 


 To bad you could not hide this post and charge like $5k for someone to read it, it provides more info than most $20k courses. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    nicely done!!!  Wraps are a great technique.. Not sure your tax basis but you also get to spread your  Cap gains out..
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Don since this is a good teaching moment for BP members without having to spend 15k with the sub 2 guys :)

    how did you set up the payments.  When I do wraps one of the main things I like is the wrap payment comes to me directly and I make sure I pay my underlying so as to not create any issue with my bank.. Although unlike you I still have to PG all my commercial bank notes :(

    Did you set up an escrow for tax's and insurance or do you just monitor them for compliance.
    Myself I monitor for compliance. AS we know failure to pay tax or insurance is an event of default so one can quickly move against the asset if the borrower is not adhering to the terms of the DT / Note.

    In addition given the large DP I suspect you were not worried about a deep dive into the church's ability to debt service.. ???

    Any other tidbits you can share I think would be great for the BP folks so they can learn to do sub 2 wraps correctly and safely..
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:

    Most note investors originate new notes or purchase existing notes (sometimes at a discount to principal)..  To obtain an “outsize” return on originating notes the note holder needs to assume a larger than normal risk, or find a “niche” not currently being serviced, the note BUYER needs to negotiate a purchase at a larger than market discount.  While I have done  both in the past, it seems like it’s harder and harder to accomplish as time goes on.  Information and exposure has been increased radically in the last 10 years, and hence those killer deals don’t seem to be there anymore.

    Fortunately for me, I had the good fortune to know and learn from the (imo) absolutely most knowledgeable, innovative, and talented note investor teacher back 40 some odd years ago.  Jimmy Napier (Invest in Debt) taught not only note buying and originating, but how to /WORK THE NOTE. Part of this was creating a high return investment from converting your current real estate holding to liquid note investments. 

    A couple of months ago I had an opportunity to put one of Jimmy’s techniques into effect.  And while there are many ways to calculate the profitability of the note I created,  the resultant investment yields significantly more than purchasing an investment in the competitive market environment.

    A summary of the deal is thus: My partners and I owned a 11,000 square foot retail/service center on a main thoroughfare in North West Houston.  For numerous reasons we decided to sell, and received at offer from the Church that was one of the occupants, for a price equal to appraised value.  Two appraisals were performed, and the values were $1,650,000, and $1,600,000.  At a $1,625,000 price, the church was going to borrower $1,000,000 from their bank at 9%.  The bank also wanted the church to maintain “compensating balances” in their checking account.

    We had an existing $650,000 mortgage secured by the property, which had been paid down to $615,000.  The mortgage had 10 + years left at 4% interest.  Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a “wrap” (the bank has done significant business with us, and obviously wants to continue the relationship).  I should point out that I nor my 2 partners have given a personal guarantee on the note. 

    So, I proposed this deal to the Church, which they accepted and we closed on April 2.  The Church pay us $1,7000,000 for the property (a premium of $75,000) to “entice” us to carry a larger note than the bank would.  The church put a down payments of $412,000 down, and we carried back a “wrap” note of $1,288,000 for 124 months (to “match” the length of time left on the underlying 4% note) at 9.999 % interest (had to be under 10% to comply with the board of directors of the Church without going for another vote), and payments of $16,701.57 monthly for 124 months.  Once our payments on the underlying note is approximately $4,000 this provides us a cash income of $12,700 monthly. Based on a CASH sale price we would have received $1,625,000 as a cash sale, less the $615,000 note payoff, or $1,010, 000 CASH,  By CREATING the wrap note, we received $412,000 Cash and the note.  So, for giving up $$598,000 in cash, we receive net of $12,700 monthly for 124 months.  Using TMV calculator, this is an annual return of 23% on the cash I would have received by a cash sale.  So, by creating and working a note, I’m able to create a 23% return.  This is possible on a 9.999 percent note because (1) I’m earning 9.999% on the $615,000 underlying note but paying out only 4% and (2) by providing seller financing I was able to obtain a $75,000 higher sale price. 


     To bad you could not hide this post and charge like $5k for someone to read it, it provides more info than most $20k courses. 

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    OP
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    nicely done!!!  Wraps are a great technique.. Not sure your tax basis but you also get to spread your  Cap gains out..

     Ownership is in my Roth Solo 401K.  No taxes 

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    nicely done!!!  Wraps are a great technique.. Not sure your tax basis but you also get to spread your  Cap gains out..

     Ownership is in my Roth Solo 401K.  No taxes 


    OUTSTANDING  I was kind of wondering why you would not 1031.. that answer's that one.. hopefully this will get some participation from BP members looking to sub 2 wrap safely. 
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    OP
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Don since this is a good teaching moment for BP members without having to spend 15k with the sub 2 guys :)

    how did you set up the payments.  When I do wraps one of the main things I like is the wrap payment comes to me directly and I make sure I pay my underlying so as to not create any issue with my bank.. Although unlike you I still have to PG all my commercial bank notes :(

    Did you set up an escrow for tax's and insurance or do you just monitor them for compliance.
    Myself I monitor for compliance. AS we know failure to pay tax or insurance is an event of default so one can quickly move against the asset if the borrower is not adhering to the terms of the DT / Note.

    In addition given the large DP I suspect you were not worried about a deep dive into the church's ability to debt service.. ???

    Any other tidbits you can share I think would be great for the BP folks so they can learn to do sub 2 wraps correctly and safely..
    1. Church is property tax exempt.  Our attorney confirmed with the Church attorney
    2. Our insurance policy was extended for 12 months with the church paying at closing and transfer to their name with our LLC as additional insured.
    3. We collect payments through our in-house loan servicing and pay underlying mortgage.  A notification system has been set up whereby the bank holding the underlying mortgage has allowed online access to the church (with our permission)

    Jay, the fact that the bank has approved this transaction has taken a whole lot of additional needed legal safeguards off the table that would have been necessary in a subject to or wrap that did not have the express written approval of the underlying note holder. And the fact that both parties were represented by knowledgeable , experienced real estate attorneys insured a framework in place for the best possible outcome.  

    we performed a light due diligence as to the financial health of the Church.  
    1. They had Ben our tenant for 4 + years and all rent was paid, even during Covid
    2. We obtained personal guarantee of Pastor for this location as well as manager of LLC who is Secretary of parent organization
    3. We obtained a CPA produced financial statement. 
    4. We received $412,000 down.  

    Don’t forget, we are hard money lenders, so we are used to financing borrowers who aren’t necessarily strong.  While this is at a higher LTV, we feel the risk is worth it. 
    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Don since this is a good teaching moment for BP members without having to spend 15k with the sub 2 guys :)

    how did you set up the payments.  When I do wraps one of the main things I like is the wrap payment comes to me directly and I make sure I pay my underlying so as to not create any issue with my bank.. Although unlike you I still have to PG all my commercial bank notes :(

    Did you set up an escrow for tax's and insurance or do you just monitor them for compliance.
    Myself I monitor for compliance. AS we know failure to pay tax or insurance is an event of default so one can quickly move against the asset if the borrower is not adhering to the terms of the DT / Note.

    In addition given the large DP I suspect you were not worried about a deep dive into the church's ability to debt service.. ???

    Any other tidbits you can share I think would be great for the BP folks so they can learn to do sub 2 wraps correctly and safely..
    1. Church is property tax exempt.  Our attorney confirmed with the Church attorney
    2. Our insurance policy was extended for 12 months with the church paying at closing and transfer to their name with our LLC as additional insured.
    3. We collect payments through our in-house loan servicing and pay underlying mortgage.  A notification system has been set up whereby the bank holding the underlying mortgage has allowed online access to the church (with our permission)

    Jay, the fact that the bank has approved this transaction has taken a whole lot of additional needed legal safeguards off the table that would have been necessary in a subject to or wrap that did not have the express written approval of the underlying note holder. And the fact that both parties were represented by knowledgeable , experienced real estate attorneys insured a framework in place for the best possible outcome.  

    we performed a light due diligence as to the financial health of the Church.  
    1. They had Ben our tenant for 4 + years and all rent was paid, even during Covid
    2. We obtained personal guarantee of Pastor for this location as well as manager of LLC who is Secretary of parent organization
    3. We obtained a CPA produced financial statement. 
    4. We received $412,000 down.  

    Don’t forget, we are hard money lenders, so we are used to financing borrowers who aren’t necessarily strong.  While this is at a higher LTV, we feel the risk is worth it. 

    In kind of a reverse sub 2 when i sold my logged over timber land we took back the note the hypothicated it So our bank was aware and blessed the transaction.. As they create the debt after with your situation debt is already created so getting the banks blessing is paramount.
    I sold an office building i had to take back after the GFC my bank was good to me and kept my loan in place and I did what you did and sold to my Tenant.. The tenant just paid off my underlying and now I have 400k or so they still owe me  on a 1.5 mil ARV in position.. I made no real return during the pay down my return comes now.. and I was not forced to mark to market at the time..

    Good commercial Bank / Bankers are I believe critical aspects of our business I know mine for sure kept me upright during the GFC.
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y

    @Roberto R.

    This type of deal is more complex but if you start as a hard money lender and understand the business you will look to get more creative and can do things participation agreements, Dutch loans for fix and flips and other ways to beef your returns.

    What you also will notice on sites like this the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge and are not trying to give an angle to push you toward some over priced guru

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.


     Definitely not worth the risk. Banks rarely heed attempts to beg for forgiveness

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...


    Andrew Keep in mind we don't know Don's basis..  and as for rate its market. Church's are big bizz unless they can pass the hat to pay cash then they are like any other owner user. I don't Think Don would need to unless he had some affiliation with them to be doing some special deal just B/C they are a church.. Keep in mind some of those Southern churches are very wealthy and those running it are driving top end cars  50k rolex and wifes decked out in hundreds of thousands of Nice personal jewelry this is what I saw when I worked MS TN and AL.. those Pastors were quite wealthy.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs: @Chris Seveney
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

    Sure, I get what you are trying to say "the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge"

    But, that is just enough information to get someone not properly trained into serious trouble. 

    Will the jays of the world (Don makes no comment on this, so let's leave him out)

    provide the complete training for free and will they answer the difficult questions when they arise? Will they take responsibility for their advice? Will they be there when it's essential? Will they train the investor on where to locate these deals, how to negotiate them, what to look for. 

    All for free?

    These are not smooth transactions, They carry a lot of risk. Sometimes they teeter on lawsuits. Will the jays train people on what to avoid? Avoiding problems is a pretty substantial part of these types of transactions. Will they provide the systems, procedures, tax direction, making payments, insurance coverage, contracts, dealing with upset sellers and on and on? 

    All for free?

    I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but anyone who follows advice that is that general in nature and tries to do one of these, by advice from a post on a forum, 

    is sure to find themselves discussing the deal with a nasty attorney
     on the other side of the transaction and in a very formal setting called a court room.

    I can not tell someone that you can climb into a piper airplane, put the key in the ignition and hit the gas and you will be flying. There are a lot of details left out that make it deadly to try that.

    I applaud the OP that it is clearly not his intention to say just anybody can learn this from what he has successfully done. Let's applaud his honest success from TRAINING (by his admission), having experience, capital, relationships &  opportunity.

    To push anything less, is less than honest.

    Well hopefully I did not come off as someone who is going to train others.. My dad taught me this in the 70s and 80s he did hundreds of sub 2s and hundreds of wraps I was a RE agent facilitating them for the end buyers and I also did most of the purchasing on contract of the property we would then sell and wrap.. I learned personally by doing.. then when i got done with my stint at Logging in 2001 I started to buy court house steps.. and I would get frustrated when one I was tracking would redeem last minute.. I then followed up the chain of title only to find out someone bought it 3 to 5 days before the sale.. So I started to do that pre foreclosure and digging into my days of doing sub to instead of cashing these out I would just bring them current and take them sub 2 I did well over 200 of those houses in the Portland OR Metro market.. Now to be fair I did not exit on wraps market was to good we just stabilized light rehab and sold for cash and paid off the underlying I never kept these more than 6 to 18 months and then on top of that we were very well capitalized mid 8 figures in cash so we could payoff any loan at any time if it was necessary.. so my model was different I ONLY bought props with 20 to 30% or more equity after rehab day one..

    The risk your seeing now in sub 2 which gets talked about a lot is paying market or more simply because you want a lower interest rate.. these are highly risky transactions for long term holds for a number of reasons. And no I am not going to go into paid training as I personally do not believe most investors are really capitalized well enough to protect those they are buying these props from when crap hits the fan and it does and it will. For experienced well capitalized investors and SELLERS that's another story.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs: @Chris Seveney
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

    Sure, I get what you are trying to say "the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge"

    But, that is just enough information to get someone not properly trained into serious trouble. 

    Will the jays of the world (Don makes no comment on this, so let's leave him out)

    provide the complete training for free and will they answer the difficult questions when they arise? Will they take responsibility for their advice? Will they be there when it's essential? Will they train the investor on where to locate these deals, how to negotiate them, what to look for. 

    All for free?

    These are not smooth transactions, They carry a lot of risk. Sometimes they teeter on lawsuits. Will the jays train people on what to avoid? Avoiding problems is a pretty substantial part of these types of transactions. Will they provide the systems, procedures, tax direction, making payments, insurance coverage, contracts, dealing with upset sellers and on and on? 

    All for free?

    I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but anyone who follows advice that is that general in nature and tries to do one of these, by advice from a post on a forum, 

    is sure to find themselves discussing the deal with a nasty attorney
     on the other side of the transaction and in a very formal setting called a court room.

    I can not tell someone that you can climb into a piper airplane, put the key in the ignition and hit the gas and you will be flying. There are a lot of details left out that make it deadly to try that.

    I applaud the OP that it is clearly not his intention to say just anybody can learn this from what he has successfully done. Let's applaud his honest success from TRAINING (by his admission), having experience, capital, relationships &  opportunity.

    To push anything less, is less than honest.


    Keep in mind those most folks that hop in a trainer solo in 10 hours or less.. 
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs: @Chris Seveney
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

    Sure, I get what you are trying to say "the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge"

    But, that is just enough information to get someone not properly trained into serious trouble. 

    Will the jays of the world (Don makes no comment on this, so let's leave him out)

    provide the complete training for free and will they answer the difficult questions when they arise? Will they take responsibility for their advice? Will they be there when it's essential? Will they train the investor on where to locate these deals, how to negotiate them, what to look for. 

    All for free?

    These are not smooth transactions, They carry a lot of risk. Sometimes they teeter on lawsuits. Will the jays train people on what to avoid? Avoiding problems is a pretty substantial part of these types of transactions. Will they provide the systems, procedures, tax direction, making payments, insurance coverage, contracts, dealing with upset sellers and on and on? 

    All for free?

    I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but anyone who follows advice that is that general in nature and tries to do one of these, by advice from a post on a forum, 

    is sure to find themselves discussing the deal with a nasty attorney
     on the other side of the transaction and in a very formal setting called a court room.

    I can not tell someone that you can climb into a piper airplane, put the key in the ignition and hit the gas and you will be flying. There are a lot of details left out that make it deadly to try that.

    I applaud the OP that it is clearly not his intention to say just anybody can learn this from what he has successfully done. Let's applaud his honest success from TRAINING (by his admission), having experience, capital, relationships &  opportunity.

    To push anything less, is less than honest.


    Don,  First I apologize to you for this post. Roberto kind of hit me wrong so I looked up his posts he is a new member and its clear he is selling sub 2 training and If I was a betting man I suspect he is affiliated with the sub 2 guys or he is taking their playbook and running with it.  Of course its speculation on my part I dont know for sure and I am just giving my opinion on the matter kind of Like Dr. Grande does ..:)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs: @Chris Seveney
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

    Sure, I get what you are trying to say "the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge"

    But, that is just enough information to get someone not properly trained into serious trouble. 

    Will the jays of the world (Don makes no comment on this, so let's leave him out)

    provide the complete training for free and will they answer the difficult questions when they arise? Will they take responsibility for their advice? Will they be there when it's essential? Will they train the investor on where to locate these deals, how to negotiate them, what to look for. 

    All for free?

    These are not smooth transactions, They carry a lot of risk. Sometimes they teeter on lawsuits. Will the jays train people on what to avoid? Avoiding problems is a pretty substantial part of these types of transactions. Will they provide the systems, procedures, tax direction, making payments, insurance coverage, contracts, dealing with upset sellers and on and on? 

    All for free?

    I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but anyone who follows advice that is that general in nature and tries to do one of these, by advice from a post on a forum, 

    is sure to find themselves discussing the deal with a nasty attorney
     on the other side of the transaction and in a very formal setting called a court room.

    I can not tell someone that you can climb into a piper airplane, put the key in the ignition and hit the gas and you will be flying. There are a lot of details left out that make it deadly to try that.

    I applaud the OP that it is clearly not his intention to say just anybody can learn this from what he has successfully done. Let's applaud his honest success from TRAINING (by his admission), having experience, capital, relationships &  opportunity.

    To push anything less, is less than honest.


    Keep in mind those most folks that hop in a trainer solo in 10 hours or less.. 

     @Jay Hinrichs: You were very fortunate. "My dad taught me this in the 70s and 80s he did hundreds of sub 2s and hundreds of wraps"

    I'm guessing your dad didn't charge you for your training. If he did, it would be interesting to know what that amount was. He also had capital to backstop you in the event that was necessary.

    You mention someone is charging $15k to train people.
    In 1970 when you started out, if your dad charged you $2,000 that would equal $16,162 today

    Would you have paid your dad or anyone else $2,000 in 1970 to be where you are today?

    To me that seems like a pretty good investment.


    But, I'm happy for your sake that your very experienced dad trained you and didn't charge a fee.

    Sadly, most people aren't in your position and have to spend money to get that kind of training.

    I too agree, that people can choose the wrong trainer. In my opinion group learning creative finance is dangerous. There is always misinterpretation of what is being said and lack of individual training. It seems to be more productive to point people to those who honestly train and let the investor worry about if it is worth the amount to them.

    I read one post where the successful investor (Shiloh I think is his name, according to his comments) paid $75,000 for training. Would I do that? Probably not, but he did. I would think since other programs are $50K, $40k and so on, that $15k is rather appropriate, providing they are providing the appropriate training.

    I am not advocating for group learning. I believe that only individual training provides what is need. If someone can find a free mentor, they trust, that has capital and success, they by all means that is the way to go.

    Providing free mentorship seems to be by a limited number of people, if the requests and notable lack of response means anything on Bigger Pockets.

    And why should we expect successful, skilled people to give up their time for "investors" who show a 95% failure and drop out rate? What is the point there?

    Research and experience show that only people with skin in the game actually play the game. Go ask for a 100% loan with no fees, at a bank. You're unlikely to get it.

    Worthwhile training is a “give and take” proposition, just like buying real estate is a “give and take” proposition.


    OK then so you don't get black balled on this site you need to let everyone know you are a Sub 2 trainer and you charge for it.. that's the proper way to use BP otherwise you need to do what others in the bizz do and pay for your advertising on BP..

    In my mind most folks would be way better off getting a RE license and getting paid to learn like I did.. instead of hiring someone they dont know who they have no idea if the information is credible or not.   how do we know your Successful and skilled you have nothing on your bio.. No proof of what your talking about etc.
  • Investor · Merrick, NY · Member since 2014 · 14 posts · 7 votes
    2y

    @Jay Hinrichs thank you Jay for this response.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs: @Chris Seveney
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...

    Doing a sub to / wrap with the underlying loan being held by commercial lender that was not made aware and blessed this is a sure fire way to get your loan called.. And in many cases at least in my case my bank gets quarterly and annual financials from us and my Banker he would pick it up in our financial reports or our tax return and next thing I would know I am getting a call from him me when I plan to pay it off. I guess you could risk it and then beg for forgiveness but at that point you have lost face and trust of your Banker.

    Sure, I get what you are trying to say "the Dons and jay’s of the world will share how it can be done but are never pushing a product, a course, a group etc. Those are the types of people you should listen too because they just share knowledge"

    But, that is just enough information to get someone not properly trained into serious trouble. 

    Will the jays of the world (Don makes no comment on this, so let's leave him out)

    provide the complete training for free and will they answer the difficult questions when they arise? Will they take responsibility for their advice? Will they be there when it's essential? Will they train the investor on where to locate these deals, how to negotiate them, what to look for. 

    All for free?

    These are not smooth transactions, They carry a lot of risk. Sometimes they teeter on lawsuits. Will the jays train people on what to avoid? Avoiding problems is a pretty substantial part of these types of transactions. Will they provide the systems, procedures, tax direction, making payments, insurance coverage, contracts, dealing with upset sellers and on and on? 

    All for free?

    I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but anyone who follows advice that is that general in nature and tries to do one of these, by advice from a post on a forum, 

    is sure to find themselves discussing the deal with a nasty attorney
     on the other side of the transaction and in a very formal setting called a court room.

    I can not tell someone that you can climb into a piper airplane, put the key in the ignition and hit the gas and you will be flying. There are a lot of details left out that make it deadly to try that.

    I applaud the OP that it is clearly not his intention to say just anybody can learn this from what he has successfully done. Let's applaud his honest success from TRAINING (by his admission), having experience, capital, relationships &  opportunity.

    To push anything less, is less than honest.


    Keep in mind those most folks that hop in a trainer solo in 10 hours or less.. 

     @Jay Hinrichs: You were very fortunate. "My dad taught me this in the 70s and 80s he did hundreds of sub 2s and hundreds of wraps"

    I'm guessing your dad didn't charge you for your training. If he did, it would be interesting to know what that amount was. He also had capital to backstop you in the event that was necessary.

    You mention someone is charging $15k to train people.
    In 1970 when you started out, if your dad charged you $2,000 that would equal $16,162 today

    Would you have paid your dad or anyone else $2,000 in 1970 to be where you are today?

    To me that seems like a pretty good investment.


    But, I'm happy for your sake that your very experienced dad trained you and didn't charge a fee.

    Sadly, most people aren't in your position and have to spend money to get that kind of training.

    I too agree, that people can choose the wrong trainer. In my opinion group learning creative finance is dangerous. There is always misinterpretation of what is being said and lack of individual training. It seems to be more productive to point people to those who honestly train and let the investor worry about if it is worth the amount to them.

    I read one post where the successful investor (Shiloh I think is his name, according to his comments) paid $75,000 for training. Would I do that? Probably not, but he did. I would think since other programs are $50K, $40k and so on, that $15k is rather appropriate, providing they are providing the appropriate training.

    I am not advocating for group learning. I believe that only individual training provides what is need. If someone can find a free mentor, they trust, that has capital and success, they by all means that is the way to go.

    Providing free mentorship seems to be by a limited number of people, if the requests and notable lack of response means anything on Bigger Pockets.

    And why should we expect successful, skilled people to give up their time for "investors" who show a 95% failure and drop out rate? What is the point there?

    Research and experience show that only people with skin in the game actually play the game. Go ask for a 100% loan with no fees, at a bank. You're unlikely to get it.

    Worthwhile training is a “give and take” proposition, just like buying real estate is a “give and take” proposition.


    OK then so you don't get black balled on this site you need to let everyone know you are a Sub 2 trainer and you charge for it.. that's the proper way to use BP otherwise you need to do what others in the bizz do and pay for your advertising on BP..

    In my mind most folks would be way better off getting a RE license and getting paid to learn like I did.. instead of hiring someone they dont know who they have no idea if the information is credible or not.   how do we know your Successful and skilled you have nothing on your bio.. No proof of what your talking about etc.

     Wow 

    How did a post sharing a case study how something can get done got so testy.. Geesh people. People should understand that when someone has been doing something for 30+ years, you would think people would listen, but lets give them some hate... 

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Why did the bank allow this? Good business relationship?

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    "Amazingly, the bank holding our note AGREED to allow the note to remain in place after we sold the property and allow us to do a 'wrap'"

    This is the key part here and not something most banks will do. You could do a subject to but I would be nervous about doing that on such a large deal when the bank has the right to call the loan.

    Great deal, though I don't know how I feel about making such an enormous profit off a church...


    Andrew Keep in mind we don't know Don's basis..  and as for rate its market. Church's are big bizz unless they can pass the hat to pay cash then they are like any other owner user. I don't Think Don would need to unless he had some affiliation with them to be doing some special deal just B/C they are a church.. Keep in mind some of those Southern churches are very wealthy and those running it are driving top end cars  50k rolex and wifes decked out in hundreds of thousands of Nice personal jewelry this is what I saw when I worked MS TN and AL.. those Pastors were quite wealthy.

     Some churches are big businesses. I wouldn't have a problem charging a sizeable amount to one of those dispensational megachurches but for some normal community I would feel very bad about it. 

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    OP
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y

    Well, I guess I do have a few observations….

    I’m NOT concerned with the fact that someone is charging $15,000, $25,000 or even $40,000 for their mentorship.  I MAY not think it’s worthwhile, but if someone else does I’m fine with that.  But here’s what I’m NOT fine with

    1. When information provided by the “guru” is outdated, unworkable, unrealistic, or illegal

    2. When the “guru” himself does not have a verifiable track record of success in the very thing he’s teaching

    3. When the “guru” spends his time giving seminars to hook the “fish”, and has failed salespeople provide the day to day “mentoring”.

    4. When the “guru” fails to disclose past bankruptcy’s, lawsuits, AG actions, and cease and desist orders filed against him or his companies 

    5. When the “guru” won’t provide information on the success or failure rate of people who purchased his mentorship

    6. When the “guru” encourages people with no capital to extend the lending limits of their credit cards to pay for his mentorship program suggesting that they will be able to pay it off with the proceeds of their first “deal”. 

    Here’s a thought for anyone contemplating purchasing a guru mentorship.  You’re not purchasing an education in real estate investment, real estate finance, or real estate development.  You’re purchasing one persons interpretation of how a specific type of real estate transaction MAY be profitably accomplished.  If the market cycle changes; if your area of interest isn’t right; if you don’t have sufficient capital or credit; and if your not a “fit” for the work necessary to close the transaction, then you might have thrown $15,000 or $40,000 or MORE down the drain.  Even after you’ve vetted the “guru” you need to do a hard and thorough self assessment and see if the type of work is right for you.  

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    OP
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    Why did the bank allow this? Good business relationship?


    Yes, exactly. They are a relatively small bank, and our loans with them are always at 50% LTV or below, all payments are made on time, etc.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    2y

    Should have just made it an even 2 million

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    ChatGPT: Write rap lyrics about using a wraparound mortgage in a profitable deal.

    Got the seller financed, wrapped the old loan,
    New buyer in place, and the cash is grown,
    Interest spread wide, I'm collecting the flow,
    Passive income stream, watch my portfolio grow.

    Wraparound mortgage, making money stack,
    Flipping properties quick, never looking back,
    Profit in my pocket, strategy on track,
    Real estate mogul, and that's a fact.

    Analyze the numbers, every move precise,
    Minimize the risk, maximize the price,
    Equity's the goal, profit's on the rise,
    Wraparound mortgage, got me reaching for the skies.

    From the first payment made to the final note,
    Wraparound secured, watch the market float,
    Negotiation skills, deals in the bag,
    Success in my grasp, wave the victory flag.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    Why did the bank allow this? Good business relationship?


    Yes, exactly. They are a relatively small bank, and our loans with them are always at 50% LTV or below, all payments are made on time, etc.


    50% LTV, don't say that to our debt loving folks here. You'll be put in BP prison.

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