What is the fix for this electrical panel?

Question

I'm looking at a 1971 duplex I'm under contract on.  Inspector provide pictures and concern over the electrical panel.  It has multiple "double taps".  Normally, I think you install the narrow breakers, but it already has these installed.  Looking for some expertise and a cost estimate on fixing this on the two panels in the units.

Brian Matier · Answer

@Alex Gordon

First and foremost get an electrician to look at it.

Options will be:

1- Pigtail the wires outside the box with a wire nut and reconnect via single wire to the breaker (so both circuits will still run off same breaker, just like many other circuits do).  Safe as long as the load (appliance/outlet/device) doesn’t have some special code requirement (like a bathroom outlet for example that must have its own breaker)

2-  some breakers (not many) allow two circuits to be directly connected in which case you wouldn’t have to change anything (but the inspector prob checked for that already)

3-  add a double Pole breaker (if panel is compatible) or another single pole breaker if there are empty slots available in the panel.

4-  if there are no slots available for additional breakers, and the double tapped circuits require them to have their own breaker then you will either have to replace the panel to one that has more spaces.

None of these are really big jobs or difficult, but the easiest is number 1.   That would take about 10 to 20 minutes.

Either way get an electrician.....my guess is it won’t be a huge problem or expense.

Johann Jells · Answer

Sorry, but I think you stated this easy answer in a confusing way!  Yes, assuming they're normal circuits and not too many outlets for a single circuit, just pull them out, and connect them both to a "pigtail", a single wire that will go to the breaker. The connector can just float inside the panel. I know old timers are dubious of them, but I've been loving the 'Wago' style push in connectors rather than wirenuts. Far less hassle to manage pigtails since the wire can rotate in the connector.

Also, FWIW, it looks like that 2nd double breaker on the top right is unused! That's potentially 4 more circuits.

Pat L. · Answer

Tough call. Wish you had better pictures & at least a make/model# of the panel & I can't see a main shutoff in the pics. I assume these are older panels so if it's to code & if it's a 100amp panel the max allowed # circuits would be 20 & as it stands it looks like your up to 16 & I can't determine how many double pole breakers you have.

However, if it's a NEWER breaker panel that will meet code & accept 1-pole tandem circuit breakers you maybe OK, (the old 20 circuits is usually not an issue with newer panels). It appears you could replace some of the older single (upper) breakers with 1-pole tandems. This would provide the 2 circuits per pole space you need.

You also need to blow out the dust/corrosion in that panel & add some anti-corrosive/connector gel.

I replaced several 100 amp breaker panels over the last 12 months for this reason & to remove random sub-panels that were not to code.

It ran about $90 a piece & 1/2 a days work. It was all fully permitted & inspected. Biggest expense & waste of space was the code requirement of $35-$45 AFCI breakers for any new circuit runs >6ft.

Jassem A. · Answer

Just run the wire so that it is not double tapped. Should only be like a 5 minute fix as long as you have empty slots which is looks like there is. So you would turn off the main and move one of the two wires to a different breaker. Based on the thickness of the wire you would want to match it to the appropriate amperage breaker. #14 is 15A, #12 is 20A, #10 is 30A, #8 is 40A, etc.

Matthew Paul · Answer

There are some breakers that are designed to be double tapped , Square D and Cutler hammer have them . Check them first

Scott Schaar · Answer

@Alex Gordon I can do some electrical work myself but I wouldn’t tackle this . I simply would forward those pictures to three contractors and get three quotes . Think legality and resale . If this came up on your inspection to buy . Then it only makes since it will come up again if you ever go to sell . Do it right the first time and it’ll save you money later .

If anything ever happened if this is a rental . There’s now documentation of faulty wiring in this structure . Although highly unlikely it would cause issues . You or the inspector would be court ordered to supply this report in a law suit . As I mentioned above I can do some electrical . Every house I buy, I have an inspection and every house shows up some small issues . I give that list to an electrician to fix everything on that list . Even if it is just a couple of GFCIs .Have to cover all the bases .

Mike Reynolds · Answer

@Alex Gordon Do they make a piggy back breaker for that box? I cant tell what brand it is.

This is a 2 circuit breaker that will fit in one spot. But you really need to change the whole thing imo.

Don Meinke · Answer

IF that is an old Federal Pacific box it would /should be gone as of yesterday They had a issue of not tripping and instead causing fires.  Google for more info.  The risk of life and limb isn't worth it.

It already suffers from toosmallatosis.  If you want to put more outlets in to reduce chances of using dangerous too small of extension cords on the biggest space heater tenants can buy.  Other reason for a 200 amp box is its what is required if you ever want to go to a electric tankless water heater for example.  Check the service size also.

Johann Jells · Answer

Care to elaborate on what "the real problem" is once the breaker is no longer double tapped, the wires are joined in a secure manner, and the total devices on the circuit does not exceed code?

What is the fix for this electrical panel?

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