Advice for insulating old brick building?

Question

I recently purchased a 3 unit building in Chicago.  I'm occupying the basement unit, and in my unit along an exterior facing wall are all of my pipes controlling water for the 3 units as well as the main.  These pipes are all type M copper, which has already resulted in a pipe burst last week, and I'm getting them replaced with type L copper along this wall.

Upon opening the wall I realized there's zero insulation, which makes sense because it's always cold in the living room.  Since I'm doing repairs after the pipe burst and need to open up this wall anyway, I want to add insulation to it.  However, I've read to proceed with caution when adding insulation to old brick building (100+ years in my case) because it can result in freeze/thaw damage due to increased moisture, rotting joists and beams that are embedded into the wall, etc.

I believe one of my upstairs units along the same wall is lacking insulation as well, which has resulted in frost in the drywall on really cold days (see attached pics).  I want to get this fixed, as I'm sure it's driving up my tenants heating bills and could lead to increased vacancy in the future if they're too high.  I am told that upgrading the pipes in my unit along the exterior wall will help a lot against future pipe bursts, but it's extremely drafty inside the wall, so I'd feel a lot better adding insulation.  Does anyone have advice on the best way to go about this?

Thanks in advance.

Seth Holmen · Answer

Looks like closed cell foam is considered the best option. Rigid foam would be the second best choice. You may also want to incorporate a vapor barrier between the brick and rigid foam.

Here are some articles.

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/insul...

https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-sci...

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/measure_guide_rigid_foam.pdf

Jim Adrian · Answer

@Ryan Redenius

What is not clear is what is the wall constructed out of, assuming its a multi-wythe brick wall (3 or 4 courses deep).   You may want to consider spray foam insulation like @Seth Holmen mentioned.  If you have stud walls in front of the brick then you may want to consider "open cell" spray foam as this won't expand and damage the drywall.  This won't give you a vapor barrier like "closed cell" foam will. This will allow the wall to continue to breathe where "closed cell" spray foam won't.  It may be easier to install as well.  If you have no studs walls up then go with a closed cell foam.

Seth, any additional insight as you may be more familiar to that area or construction type.  Great articles!

I would also consider adding a water repellant to the exterior of the brick to help eliminate the brick soaking up rain water etc.  This goes on the exterior side and will last around 10 yrs or so.

http://www.spf.basf.com/products.php

https://prosoco.com/products/hard-surface-care/water-repellents/

Brandon Ellis · Answer

@Jerry N.  I looked up that InSoFast stuff and that is awesome.  It just amazes me of all the new stuff that comes out on the market you wouldn't think of.

Seth Holmen · Answer

Do some reading on the greenbuildingadvisor.com forum. That’s where I go with questions like this. Yes, you are correct to proceed with caution.

Jerry N. · Answer

@Ryan Redenius Hope you didn't have too much damage.  As a precaution, we instruct our tenants to keep their faucets dripping.  We've had pipes freeze before, not burst on us but there is evidence that it has happened before in the building in a number of places.  The heavier copper will help a bit according to a plumber, but having numerous days long of freezing temps might still cause problems with no other measures.

I don't think Chicago allows Pex @Brandon Ellis, not 100% sure but they didn't used to for residential plumbing.

There is an insulation product called InSoFast that an architect recommended.  We haven't used it yet but are planning it for a basement reno in an old brick building. It comes in sheets and it is available in different R value, so it can have a smaller width/depth than some other types of insulation.  With our research, we don't want to use spray on an old building here.

Another building discovery we had after the time we had freezing pipes was that on one side of the building (130+ yo) there were these 'vents' in the brick between the 1st and 2nd floor so about 20' off the ground.  You wouldn't see them looking up in the gangway, we only saw them from the neighbor's window.  The opening was three courses of brick tall and about two bricks in width. Just two vertical bricks placed and nothing else - no insulation, nothing.  I don't have a picture and didn't find one on line but hopefully that description helps.   Getting a ladder and looking in was challenging but these were just openings into the building we could see about 15' in.  So in the winter, there was (5 openings spaced the length of the building if I recall correctly where) cold outside air was literally coming into the building between the floors.  Not a permanent solution, but we filled the openings with Great stuff and it made a huge difference.  It isn't pretty and isn't planned to permanent but for now it works fine.  At the time, we had asked a different architect what they were for and he had no idea.  Now we look for them on buildings and know that for the time this building was constructed, these were basically the openings in the brick behind very very old kitchen and bathroom 'vents'.  You should see if you can get a good view of the side of your building to see if you have anything like this and try to take care of it too.

Good luck on your fix.

Brandon Ellis · Answer

Same issue I've been wondering about lately with copper piping.  I'd almost want to just have copper piping replaced with Pex piping to future proof from bursting.  On a different note there is spray in insulation that may suit your needs if you don't have a lot of space for insulation.

Wesley Davis · Answer

Put the insulation behind the pipes, so that the pipes are insulated from the brick but still "exposed" on the heated side.  So... Brick-----insulation----pipes----drywall.  they won't freeze this way as long as the heat stays on.  I would also look into blue board insulation.  Upgrading the pipes might help, but if they freeze again, I'd wager they will still bust.

Max T. · Answer

Just be careful not to block the pipes from the heated air. Too much insulation on the wrong side of the pipe can make them more likely to freeze.

Advice for insulating old brick building?

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