Dealing With Contractors In Seattle

Dealing With Contractors In Seattle

San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes

Having flipped since 2004 in this market, I held the belief that the General Contractors were the problem. So in 2016, I decided to see if I could be my own GC and it turned out to be a total disaster. So as of August 23, 2016, I let my GC license lapse and going back to hiring GC. But there were some valuable lessons being a GC that can help anyone dealing with GC.

Verify all this info with your construction attorney as I am not an attorney.

Lesson #1. Have your attorney prepare all of your contracts. The contract should say that you are not a GC or if you are a GC that got GC license has nothing to do with this specific contract.

Lesson #2. If your GC does not put "We may lien your property" in the contract then they can't lien your property. You don't want this language in your contract. The GC has 90-days to file the lien.

Lesson #3. The GC will argue that you are in the business of flipping and so that you are a sophisticated investor who knows what you are doing. In Washjngton, an investor can only go after half the GC bond because they are an active investor.

Lesson #4. The subcontractors don't need a contract or "we may lien your property" disclosure to lien your house. If the subcontractor has no relationship with the owners, it is my understanding that they have to file a pre-claim within 10 days of work completion. They do have to give notice if the lien includes materials but no notice is required for labor.

Lesson #5. Whenever you pay a GC, make sure you get a partial lien release signed by the GC, the subcontractor and every employee in the job. In Washington state, any employee can lien a property if they can prove that the GC or suncontractor did not pay them. As a side note, the supervisor not performing physical work cannot lien the property. 

Lesson #6. If you are flipping, it is not worth being the GC and hiring your own crew or subcontracting out work. If you flip, you are required to be a GC or hire a GC under Washington state law. From being a GC, I now know that the risk part of a project (LNI, aesbestos, lead-based paint, injuries, employee complaints, milking the clock, OSHA safety compliance, safety training and meetings, litigation, construction defect warranties, etc) equals the cost of direct labor and materials. If you are doing BRRRR and holding all of your properties, then you work directly with subcontractors as the homeowner.

Lesson #7. You need someone experienced and savvy with permits. This will bottleneck if you do not know what you are doing. And yes you do need to pull permits as a risk management strategy.

Lesson #8. If your contractor under bids, it does hurt you. He will need to work another job to pay for your job and that's why only one or two workers are at your job. If you pay less than the market rate of $75 per sq ft for a gut out rehab, there is a high probability that it will take longer.

Lesson #9. Good luck suing the GC. They usually have no money and you will likely only get half of their bond. Nearly impossible to sue a subcontractor as a GC. Best practice is to only pay for work completed.

Lesson #10. Pay top dollar for electricians, plumbers or HVAC. Or expect delays. A good GC has a close relationship with their subcontractors.

Lesson #11. A GC cannot handle multiple projects. Usually a good GC has one or two good crews. You have to pay full market price to get their good crews. The GC will try to pick up labor but these guys are not as good in quality and speed. As a GC, I had 5 good crews. Would have done well as the GC if I was managing only 5 projects at once. I was trying to do 22 projects at one time and it was a disaster.

Lesson #12. Don't over rehab or keep changing things. If you change anything, sign a change order and pay for it. You are making it impossible for your GC to make any money if you keep changing your mind.

Lesson #13. The GC is usually not making any money with investors. Investors usually want to gut out rehab for $40 per sq ft when it costs $75 per sq ft. Or the investor wants a cosmetic rehab for $20 per sq ft when it costs $35 per sq ft. Because of this, there are no good contractors that want to work with investor. The contractors are not the problem, the investors getting into crappy deals is the problem. As a GC, it costs around $55/hour for labor when adding in risk (if their average wage is $22.50/he). After $55/hour, the GC then has to add 15% to 20% GC mark-up.

Now keep in mind that I found 52 deals last year. I have driven even street in my target areas, have thousands of dollars going out in direct mail every month, about 6-8 negotiators, a door knocking team and am targeting niche markets that you don't know about. If I have not found a single flip out of 52 deals found, chances are neither are you. I mostly ins BRRRR and land development deals now that pencil.

Lesson #14. Every experienced Rehabber is having contractor problems in Seattle right now. Because they want to pay under market rates. Pay market and get the better crew you can get your project done in 90-days to 120-days. If you pay under market, expect projects taking 7 to 9 months.

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Real Estate Agent · Lynnwood, WA · Member since 2009 · 47 posts · 15 votes
10y

I absolutely agree that you get what you pay for.....and the hiring of people who can take the stress off your shoulders is more than worth the money you pay in the end.

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  • Real Estate Agent · Lynnwood, WA · Member since 2009 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    I absolutely agree that you get what you pay for.....and the hiring of people who can take the stress off your shoulders is more than worth the money you pay in the end.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jacqueline Cliff:

    I absolutely agree that you get what you pay for.....and the hiring of people who can take the stress off your shoulders is more than worth the money you pay in the end.

     You can also overpay for people who does a crappy job or works super slow LOL But you definitely won't find good contractors if you underpay. Or they could be good, but your not a priority because you are underpaying. 

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Ryland Taniguchi I doubt you will find a GC that wants  have the clause in their contract that they can be lien your property if you fail to pay the GC is protecting themselves.

     GC in their own contracts don't put the "notice for lien your property" all the time and under Washington State law they cannot lien the property without it in the contract. Washignton State law is very unfavorable to general contractors and very favorable to home owners, subcontractors and employees.

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 77 posts · 46 votes
    10y

    Wow. Incredibly concise, distilled and lucid compendium. Amazing to see someone test, reverse, and perform an autopsy on their own beliefs. As someone currently preparing to hire GCs for the first time instead of subbing out remodels, **thank you!**

    The strategy I'm trying is to prepare plans and permit applications with architects, then shop those around to GCs. 

    Advantages I see: GCs don't have to waste their time helping me figure out what I want, waiting for permits, less worry for change orders, and easy bidding...which hopefully leads to less uncertainty overhead built into their bids, and a better value for me (along with the most optimized layouts). Also, I get your #7 ("person experienced and savvy with permits").

    Any thoughts on this strategy, perhaps contrasted to how you prefer to go about selecting a GC/remodel plan? 

    Also what are your five former crews up to? I will keep them busy for a bit :) 

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Thomas Mattausch:

    Wow. Incredibly concise, distilled and lucid compendium. Amazing to see someone test, reverse, and perform an autopsy on their own beliefs. As someone currently preparing to hire GCs for the first time instead of subbing out remodels, **thank you!**

    The strategy I'm trying is to prepare plans and permit applications with architects, then shop those around to GCs. 

    Advantages I see: GCs don't have to waste their time helping me figure out what I want, waiting for permits, less worry for change orders, and easy bidding...which hopefully leads to less uncertainty overhead built into their bids, and a better value for me (along with the most optimized layouts). Also, I get your #7 ("person experienced and savvy with permits").

    Any thoughts on this strategy, perhaps contrasted to how you prefer to go about selecting a GC/remodel plan? 

    Also what are your five former crews up to? I will keep them busy for a bit :) 

     Make sure you get the right people. Many architects are so busy that they are the bottleneck.

    It's impossible to find enough crews. I don't think any experienced people give out their good crews right now in a market with shortage of good construction labor. The supervisors and crew leaders are now back to being GCs and I keep them very busy.

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 77 posts · 46 votes
    10y

    Yeah, I was [kind of] joking about the crews :)

    So the supervisors are back to operating their own GC businesses? Or are they still in your employ, but you are no longer filling the functional role of GC? 

    As a anecdotal case study, I'd love to hear what sort of disagreeable incidents led you to learn more about liens. 

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Thomas Mattausch:

    Yeah, I was [kind of] joking about the crews :)

    So the supervisors are back to operating their own GC businesses? Or are they still in your employ, but you are no longer filling the functional role of GC? 

    As a anecdotal case study, I'd love to hear what sort of disagreeable incidents led you to learn more about liens. 

     They are back to GC and not employees

  • Lynnwood, WA · Member since 2009 · 38 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    As a former contractor, it definitely is not worth being a GC for the purposes of flipping/rehabbing homes.  Take a hint from all the big players across all industries.  They outsource as much as possible to reduce overhead and risk.

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