Does an older house need to be rewired?

Question

I am rehabbing one apartment in a 1937 triplex in Los Angeles I just bought. Looks like the electricial wiring is original two cloth-insulated wires, although the kitchen and bathroom have three-prong GFI outlets. The main panel supplies 100amps for the whole building. The inspection didn't point out anything about the electricials, so I am trying to determine how much work is required vs what is nice to have. To rewire the whole building to modern codes and upgrade the power supply to 200amps would cost 15k. But what do I need to do? Can I get away with the existing wiring? I know new construction must be to code, but what about older buildings?

Alex Franks · Answer

Michael I also deal with NC properties. I always replaced plumbing, or electric or updated things to code when needed. These are two items that are worth getting updated or brought to code in all deals. Every time we tried to leave and get by ( thinking we are going to save money) by not replacing or updating, it always cost us more he long run. So rule of thumb for us, bring every thing up to code. Get Inspection and run through everything. Do not cut any corners.

Just my two cents

Alex

Hattie Dizmond · Answer

you're in CA, so there's likely so weirdness to the statutes.  But, here in Texas, you would probably be ok with the existing wiring, if it passed inspection.  The caveat is that if you do any work to the electrical system that would require a city inspection, you would likely be required to bring everything up to code.

It sounds like they probably put in pigtails. However, I would consult a licensed electrician and the city code enforcement office.  The electrician can tell you about the code AND whether it is safe, regardless of what is required.

Darrell Shepherd · Answer

California is probably pretty strict.  In Georgia anything you touch has to be brought up to current code.  I do some stuff in Ohio and the norm there is to leave the old stuff and run a grounded outlet to each room, I guess because rewiring there is a huge job with the nob and tube wiring and plaster walls, you cant pull anything through with all the knots in the wire.

Anyway, its pretty safe stuff.  Not ideal, but it works.  Big thing there is not to use grounded outlets with non grounded wires.  As far as when to upgrade, a lot of that depends on how extensive your rehab is and what your exit is.  I tend to avoid fixing things that arent broke, but would have planned on electrical with a 100 amp service on 3 units, especially if its the old screw in breakers.  I replace those 100% of the time.

Aleko Petkov · Answer

Can't argue with that, Andreas. In the long run you're paying for the upgrades one way or another. I would opine though, that sacrificing some appreciation down the road is less painful than pulling cash out of your pocket today.

Yeah, it's not the right approach, but in this case, the decision to defer the electrical upgrade is more about dealing with my failure to accurately estimate rehab costs than penny pinching. I don't want to blow all my reserves on one unit when there are two more that may need work soon.

Andreas W. · Answer

If a licensed electrician passes the wiring as safe, you might be getting by. On the other hand, you will have a hard time getting insurance for the building. Most policies exclude knob and tube wiring, if this is what you have. Should you even think about selling it, you will likely have to make serious price concessions. Any inspector will point out the wiring and the undersized panel. Looking through my "buyer's glasses", I would pass on your property, unless I get a discount that is the equivalent of the upgrade plus the costs for rent loss. and aggravation.

Stone Teran · Answer

While I agree with a lot of the advice given here, hell no I wouldn't update all the wiring for no reason.  We are here to make money, not make showroom quality work behind the walls where we'll never make our money back.

Alex Franks · Answer

Aleko

I still think one of the major mistakes in real estate investing today . Is not budgeting correctly, and fixing things 100% correctly. I see it time, and time again. Cutting corners to save a dollar. Stepping over a dollar to pick up a nickel is my simple analogy.

Trying to squeeze numbers. Years ago I had a international guys funding us. As we were turning out the projects. I sat  an argued with both the lender ,and my real estate partner. What you don't fix today will cost us twice as much down the road. It did not cost us twice as much but went to 3x amount we lost.

One size does not fix all in real estate. There is a reason for inspections and to follow up with those. Fix every thing besides we are providing housing for people. They should be the best we can provide.

Just rambling now but some times it is sickening to see money I have thrown away. Or the company has thrown away because things were not fixed correctly the first time.

Just rambling now

Alex

learn from my mistakes

John Arendsen · Answer

The advice you've received about consulting a licensed electrician is very valid. As a general contractor for the past 3+ decades I still reach out to them even though I'm qualified to build or remodel structures from the pad up.

The things you really need to know are amperage, type of wiring which I assume could be the old cloth type wrapping around what could be aluminum wiring which has popped up on older homes and especially early 60's and 70's mobile homes.

But that's as far as I'll take this conversation. Get the advice of a LICENSED ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR.

Aleko Petkov · Answer

Solid, professional advice. This being our first rehab, we uhh... didn't quite do that. Lesson learned. I now have a much deeper appreciation for the importance of cleaning up a property upfront, rather than "saving time", and dealing with issues as they come up.

Aleko Petkov · Answer

UPDATE: Thank you everyone for all your input. I have learned a lot. Sorry for the late response; it's been a busy few days. Last weekend I met with another electrician, and got a chance to ask all the questions that had been forming in my head. Here's what I learned.

There is no exposed wiring. The wires are cloth-covered, but they are inside steel conduits, which run all the way back to the main panel. The wires are completely insulated inside the pipe, so fire hazard is minimal, and the wires can be replaced relatively easily, without breaking open the walls. Also, the conduit acts as a ground, so GFI outlets will work correctly. Why did modern construction turned away from conduits, anyway?

The bigger problem is that there is simply not enough power coming to the building. Four lines, and a total of 30 amps per unit means that luxuries like a garbage disposer and a dish washer are likely to cause more trouble than they are worth. The more things there are, the higher the chance that enough of them will be run at once to trip a circuit breaker.

To get more power, we would have to upgrade the main panel, which turns out to be shockingly expensive. Also, a main panel upgrade requires rewiring the whole building. And, since modern codes call for more lines and outlets, the walls would have to be opened. With the other two units being occupied, this whole undertaking seems very unappealing.

The lowest, and yet most professional-looking bid is around 15k. There doesn't seem to be a middle-of-the-road option, i.e. rewiring one unit without upgrading the panel.

This is our second property, and first rehab, so we're learning as we go. I expected some electrical work, but I just didn't know enough to make an accurate estimate, and this is way over budget. We have enough reserves to do the full upgrade if necessary, but I'm struggling to justify it - there is no immediate safety concern, and it's out of scope.

Sure, the upgrade would have to be done at some point, and it would cost more to do it later, but we'll have more experience and cash, so it seems best to leave the electricals as they are for now. The project is taking longer than expected as it is.

Does an older house need to be rewired?

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