Need help w/ Appliances - How do you find good deals?

Question

Well I'm new to flipping, and hopefully will be doing my first flip soon.

I've been trying to learn as much as possible, and have been pricing some items (flooring, cabinets, etc) trying to get a better idea of what exactly it might cost me to do a rehab.

I'm wondering what's the best route to go with appliances... Do you always include them dishwasher, refrigerator, stove, and range microwave?  Is it important to go with stainless steel(make the house that much easier to sell?)  I'm probably going with a house that will cost me in the range of $30k to $60k so it's not going to be a big $ home.

Are you getting "closeout" and "out of box" items and mixing and matching or sticking to all one name brand?

Are you going someplace where they make commission, and forming a relationship with a salesman that you go back to flip after flip?

Thanks

-Brian

Christian Malesic · Answer

My Clark Kent to my REI Superman is running an electrical contracting firm.

14 Amps needs a 20A breaker.  The NEC (National Electrical Code) calls for 80% load calculations for safety; thus, the dishwasher (assuming the 14A is correct as read from the nameplace of the appliance) should be the only thing on the circuit, which is standard practice anyway (80% of 20A is 16A).

A 20A breaker requires 12 AWG (12 guage wire).  16 AWG is lamp cord and is NEVER used in home wiring.  Many electricians do not even like to use 14 AWG, though it does meet code for most of the home circuits.

Richard F. · Answer

You say you "mastered" electrical? I suggest you re-read the codes regarding proper conductor sizing for a 20 amp circuit. Advice such as above can cause fires that kill people.

Adam Logan · Answer

Lefty,
Illinois?  My best friend here is from Aurora.  Are you near there?  If so, having me help out is VERY within reason because I would have a free place to stay, and hed come along every time too.  I was thinking CA or something, which after living there, know a job would have to be HUGE to pay for the trip.  Illinois is doable.  Just keep me inmind.

Adam Logan · Answer

Lefty,
I actually AM in everyones part of the country.  I will travel often if a job is big enough to pay forthe trip an maybe put a few in my pocket.  I consider it a free vacation at minimum, andevery job I do is a free ad to anyone who sees my wok.  The more I get around, thecloser I get to the big daddy hotel and apartment complex contracts.  Dont count me out if you have a job tat is rather large or that might pay a bit.  Where are you located?  I went to ohio for a$600 tub job and was there 4 days forfree.It was worth getting to see some new places and get away.  It was a TONfor atub at 600 as I chage 225+, but a contractor subbed me and offered it.  Paid myairline tixand shipment of my equipment.  5days there I might spent a total of 400 after getting paid and doing everything I could do and see those 5 days.

Mel Hare · Answer

Amerikote, I wish you were in my part of the country. Nice to hear people still take pride in their work.

Lefty

Adam Logan · Answer

Women buy the house, not the men.  And, they buy based on the kitchen and the batthrooms, but mainly the kitchen!  TRUST ME!  Doesn't have to be extremely nice, but the more ammenities / fixtures that save time and make life easier, the more likely you sell the house!  At least 50% of my rehab money went into the kitchens.  I alsmost always had to run new wiring for a dishwasher and/or above range microwave.  But my houses appealed to WOMEN, and I sold them extremely fast.

Just grab some used stuff that matches, brand is not important.  Whites a safe bet.  A 60k house probably only needs a 30" fridge, you can grab one out of the newspaper, trading times, even some thrift shops sell appliances where I am.  On a white fridge, I tried to spend $200 or less, even if it needed a little cleaning up. Unless the house ia absolutely rehabbed to like new condition, the buyers wont expect new appliances.  Homes approaching 100k or more, say 1200 Liveable SF plus, I tried to get a double door 36 inch.  These I got for about $200-300 used.  $150k I always went stainless and never found a used stainless applance, just scratch and dent.  $650 was about the min I could get them for.

Stoves I did my BEST to get a smooth top.  Just looks nicer.  Again, I was not "set" with only flat tops, especially with the price difference.  On a 60k home I would spend around $100-150 MAX $150 on a range.  I usually grabbed something that needed a cleaning around 100 bucks or so. Not the newest, just "decent."  The pans are cheap and easy to  replace and really make a big difference.  The burners are nt terribly bad either if the old ones are rusty.  If the things dirty  and a slobs selling it, even better cuz you save a ton if they dont clean out the oven with oven cleaner.

Dishwshers a dime a dozen, and a NECESSITY to sell the house and compete with other sellers..  I usually paid $50-$75 for a used one, $150 - 200 for new scratch and dent stainless with my source when I needed them new.  They have no resale value.  Probably the easiest thing to buy cheap and in good shape.  Not something people typically look to buy used.  They last forever, so usually people  buy them new to stay  updated.  When I got them used, it was always due to a remodel.  I got 3 brand new ones for under like 200 bucks at a local builders surplus liquidation once.  I typically spend $35 bucks and threw in a garbage disposal in line with the washer too.  Just another nice convenient time saver.  However, a PAIN to wire to a switch with existing walls.  Unless gutted, it was my nightmare.

Think of it this way, you'd want it too, and imagine if you had to pay an electrician, plumber, etc to come in ON TOP of the price of the items new.  DIY you really make a difference in the marketability for little cost.  If you dont know how to do electrical work, LEARN LEARN LEARN!!  It makes one take for granted how easy and cheap upgrading a kitchen is if they are not paying a electrician $75 an hr to run the wires, usually  costing as much or moe than some of the appliances!

Electrical Possibly the most important thing I mastered that gave me so many options when rehabbing, dont forget... wire is dirt cheap!  If you need advice on electrical, I can help.  It takes a while to learn what amperage breakers you need and gauge of wire (a dishwasher pulls up to about 14 amps, needs its own line basically.  20 amp breaker, 14 g wire I believe is what I used, but 16 would suffice.  I just tend to always size up my wire.  Other than that, its just hairpulling trying to fish it up walls into the attic and to the breaker box.  Behind dishwashers/microwaves you have a nice area to put a hole in the drywall to get it done easier, and it hides it well.  No one will ever see it.

One thing I tend to be very adimant and picky about is I ALWAYS put an above range microwave and NOT a hood.  Countertop ones are so outdated, take up so much space, that it  REALLY seemed to help sell the homes faster.  Its not a cheap thing to put in if you pay for instalation, so if you do it yourself, you really underestimate the value it has to a buyer who PROBABLY would intend to have one installed but most likely are going to be swayed by such minor things when it comes to making offers.  Its a hassel really, and probably $500-600 to get one new and pay installation.  I ALWAYS bought them new, white maybe $150, stainless $250-300.  Its a pain in the ARSE too sometimes because if the cabinets are old, sometimes the bridge cabinet is like 18 inches and the thing sits TOO LOW.  This is where it got tricky.  You actually can carfullt CUT the cabinet with a good expensive jigsaw and a skinny blade.  Formica you just CAREFULLY peel back on the edges, and on the flat surface, aplly duct tape over the cut point.  Use a circular saw with a lot of teeth in the blade.  The tape prevents chipping.  Peel it off and apply the strips you removed with contact cement.  I have donw the same with wood ones, just had to be creative and put them back together with dowel rods and such so there were no external screw holes.  I have done this to lower cabinets too to fit a dishwasher.  Really study the design so you know exaclty where to cut and how it will fit back together.  Drawers are not much harder, though you may need a router to route the slot back in to the bottom piece of wood.  If they are wood not formica, you have to match the router bit to the drawer edge and reroute then stain the edge.  More noticeable.  But the doors can always be trimmed and put back together especially panel doors.  Dowels through the bottoms and a screw on each side to sturdy them,  then some wood filler and a touch of stain if necessary.

I did this almost everytime I did a house.  Typically, you CAN  tell YOU did it, but no one else will be able to if you take your time and do it nice.    Now I can paint the darn things so THAT would have been so much easier.  I coulda cut them and chipped and marred them to death, bondoes the damage, and shot them or even relaminated them in real wood veneer.  I got into this business FOR my REI company AFTER I bought my final house.  Ii tell you I would have been breaking the bank being able to paint my floor tile, applicances, cabinets, counters, tubs, showers, sinks.  I installed abut 5 tubs because I never knew about this business.  For twice the cheapest tub money can buy, I coulda had them refinished.  2nd to last house, I came across a guy who does this, and he did my counters and shower in like 3 hours for about $800.  Before that, I woulda replaced them myself and spent 2 weeks doing it.

I stumbled onto the wood laminate veneer online and after my last house did MY kitchen in it, just bought my doors from THE cheapest company on earth, out of Texas.  He has  the mexicans make them and brings them back over the border.  I have 36 cabinet doors, 60 SF of counter, and justto have them painted was $1800!  Mills pride at the Depot was $3200 to replace them!  I refinished them, with SOLID oak cathedral doors and oak veneer for around $1400!!!  I then discovered people pay THOUSANDS for formica, so I started doing it on the side too for about the same price as formica.  Dunno how I got off the subject, but this brings back memories of when I loved life and had my REI company.  I miss the rehabbing.  I would LOVE to do rehabs for people / investors for a living.  N0 one on earth can rehab a house cheaper than I can.  I spent ALL of my time studying alternatives to costly repairs, and honestly, I can probably use paint and rehab 90% of a house entirely with it, in a week or two!  I never got to try it anywhere but my house and customers.   :(

Just for the heck of it, heres before and after in my kitchen.  The counter is the first paint job I ever did.  I put flex wood banding on the edge to make it appear solid surface!  Avoided 6k in granite, spent $300 in chemicals, and pretty neat huh?  These are  the $1400 cabinets too, MINUS the nickel bar pulls I got on ebay for 300.  The tile is the only thing I splurged on, almost $2000 in tile and Idid it my self.  Porcelain and stainless steel tiles.  The front of my island I made from SOLID oak, and 3 ceiling tiles.  That cost about $500 and I hit my finger with a chop saw ending up in the ER while doing it.  But hell, It went right over the formica, and the woods matched the veneer and stain to a TEE!  Also, the microwave is an example of a cabinet cut I did to make it fit.  Put it in after I did the cabinets, so I had to cut them.  Just goes to show, it CAN be done easily even on expensive or solid wood doors.

Sorry for the rambling on.  Hopefully you get sme good ideas from my ramblings.  I am the one to go to when you have a dilemma and need a work around for it.  Most likely, I have been faced with the same dilemma and found a way to do it myself and a hell of a lot cheaper.  I have replaced submersible well pumps, added a drain to a pool by digging a cave to the bottom, built a studio apartment with full bath and kitchen under my stilt home through the concrete slab, wired it entirely and plumbed it, framed it, replaced an entire attic worth of ducting, removed a dock out of the gulf, cleared a full 1/2 acre lot with my truck, a 3 ton chain, and a chainsaw, then sodded it myself.  Yep, I used to have things to be proud of til I got screwed by my ex wife.  I am ALWAYS hapy to help advise OBVIOUSLY anyone who needs advice.

First counter repaint I ever did.  A lot diferent than the other guys in the business huh?  :)

Before

After

Closer look, though an EARLIER less finished picture, at my masterpiece backsplash and hopscotch floor to match.  The bottom mosaic tiles on the wall are 6 inches wide and 3 inches high.  They cost 12 bucks EACH!!  the 6 inchers on the floor are stainless and were a meek 6 bucks each.  Money was a nice thing to have! Nice indeed until it was all gone. But the pride I took in my rehabbing was far greater than the money.  Every hose I did I made BEAUTIFUL, I was addicted to the pride of seeing people drop jaw at my creations.  I gave investors a HELL of a name around here,one of few that realtors actually had a demand for my homes and showed the properties to buyers because I had rehabbed them!  Now, every penny was a waste I put in this house as it has declined $125,000-150,000 in value from "the crash."  Sucks and I will probably lose the house too soon with my $2400 mortgage LOC INTEEST ONLY!!!, home/flood insurance 4k a yr, 5k yr taxes, and all the hard work and pride will be auctioned off to a buyer who knows NOTHING about what I did in here.  I am a hurtin big on this one!

Adam Logan · Answer

I used to get mine at lowes, I only did stainless and the guys in the dept called me every time a scratch and dent was put out and id buy it 25% off and store it.

Now, I could buy the cheapest one around in avacado with dents, fix the dents, paint it with my industrial stainless flake paint, and its pretty damn close looking.  ut, I am a professional refinisher.

Eric Wang · Answer

It really depends on the market you are targeting and location.  It's always good to have matching applicance or at least same color.  I always try to get the best deal I can.  It's good that your figuring out material costs, but don't forget labor cost, unless your doing everything yourself.  I try to do as much as I can myself, cause labor is so expensive, but sometimes I have to sub-contract out work.  Sometimes I go with different material cause it's easier to work with, or labor is to expensive.  If I'm buying applicances for my rental, such as washer and dryer, I only buy Whirlpool, why, cause the guy who fixes them told me they last the longest from the other brand, I take his word for it cause thats what he does for a living.

Charles Whitaker · Answer

I second the thought of not including SS appliances in a home under a certain amount~determined by your market. We always look for deals at wholesale prices and determine if it can be used where we need it. I usually only go with a new dishwasher.

Account Closed · Answer

I would try your local craigslist also.  I see real good deals on fairly new stuff on there.  I have bought from some local second hand appliance stores but I have found them to be somewhat expensive compared to some of thestuff you can find on craigslist.