Starting my first flip on Monday

Starting my first flip on Monday

Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes

I'm going to start on my first flip on Monday. I want to post all of my pre-flip numbers here so they are etched in digital stone so I can refer back to them when all is said and done. I'll explain my methods to arrive at the numbers below. I'll do a separate before and after photo montage. If experienced flippers have suggestions as to where I can cut costs or make improvements to my plans, feel free to fire away.

My goals are 1) don't lose my investor's money, 2) learn a lot, 3) make money for myself.

This flip I am going to start actually came on the market about six months ago. The seller's agent didn't enter the property properly into the local MLS so when you searched for either SFH or duplexes, the property never showed up. The listing is actually for two separately deeded properties, one SFH and one empty lot. The original asking price was $36k.

When the property was dropped to $29.9k, I decided the property was worth a visit with my Realtor. The property needs some fairly standard improvements: fully updated kitchen (existing is old 1950's era metal cabinetry), refinish floors, painting, reconfiguration of the 2nd floor bathroom and moving the laundry room from the nasty 4.5' tall basement, up to the nicer 1st floor.

I used zillow to find the three most recent sales, on the same block and arrived at an ARV of $85k. Because I arrived at the ARV myself and not through my Realtor, I chopped 15% off of my proposed ARV, dropping the potential sale to $72,590. With 30% margins, my max cost to rehab is $50,813.

Please note: I try to be conservative (ie high) on my rehab costs. I'm a contractor as my day job, so I have some idea of local pricing. That being said, even contractors can be 'low' on their estimates.

Kitchen Cabinets: $1,725
Counter top: $6,480
Appliances: $1,350 (range and dishwasher)
Minor electrical updates/repairs: $1,000
1st Floor refinish: $3,600
2nd Floor carpeting: $1,500
Bathroom Update: $1,500
Painting: $750
Heating System*: $1,000
Labor for the above: $6,720
Contingency: $2,563

Purchase price: $25,000
Rehab costs: $28,188 (Including contingency)
Total Investment: $53,188

Holding costs @6 mos: ($2,150)
Closing costs: ($5,978) (7% of Comps value, ie $85k)
Net profit: $72,590 -$53,188 -$2,150 -$5,978 = $11,275

*The owner let the building freeze without winterizing the house (claimed and screamed that the house had been winterized, so don't worry about the pipes). Anyway, one of my contingencies was to include a warranty for all domestic water and heating pipes and appliances. The seller agreed. After the polar vortex left the North East, we went back to the house. There was water all over the basement. The seller got the domestic pipes back in order and claimed the boiler was fine.

How would a boiler freeze? The seller had decided to not keep oil in the house, so the boiler ran out of oil and the cast iron heat exchanger froze. Cast iron doesn't stand up to thermal shock or stresses well, and the HX cracked. I'm supposed to close on Monday at a cost of $23,k and was at the house today (Saturday) to verify everything was dry. The boiler was dripping water, just as I had predicted. The deal looked to be off as the seller told us she would only credit $300 if we found any other issues.

I asked my Realtor to let the seller's agent know that if the seller would drop the price $5k for me to put a new boiler in, I would still close on Monday. The seller relented and dropped the sales price to $18k. My sub gave me a cost of $6.5k for an oil-to-gas conversion. So the $1,000 in my budget plus the $5k from the seller plus $500 from contingency should cover the new boiler.

1Reply
42 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
12y
My biggest question is why are you putting $7,000 counter tops in a 70k house.
See this reply in the discussion

21 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 696 votes
    12y
    Nice job negotiating! Looking forward to hearing about your progress :D
  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y
    My biggest question is why are you putting $7,000 counter tops in a 70k house.
  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    @Marcus Johnson I've actually discussed that number with my contractor. We've got a better solution which is about 1/3 the cost of the counter tops I have listed. As I mention, my estimates are conservative, so I should come in lower than what I have proposed.

  • Jessica H.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Easton, PA · Member since 2013 · 224 posts · 36 votes
    12y

    Gotta love these old houses in winter time! We have dealt with similar issues on the flip we are currently working on. It had an oil boiler and we wanted to do a gas conversion but in the end we went with 2 heat pumps which was about the same price but we got rid of the nasty looking radiators and now have air for the warm months as well. Might be something to consider....We have the same goals as you with this flip, so far things are going ok, ran into a few extra expenses but we had planned for that and we are learning a TON. Absolutely invaluable education! Best of luck!

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 212 posts · 107 votes
    12y

    What kind of counters are you getting for 1/3 the price, i.e. $2k? Should be able to get low grade granite for that price in a regular sized kitchen.

  • Contractor · Easton, PA · Member since 2013 · 152 posts · 58 votes
    12y

    I would think you could do granite also much cheaper.

    I question your holding cost. Insurance can range from 50-100 a month, Property taxes, electric, water and sewer and gas. I think your number is light. In this holding cost number the financing should also be included as well . You are budgeting $360 a month. Break your number down for me.

    Also what is the square footage. The amount of paint used is determined by sf.

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    @Martin Zawarski You may be right that I'm a little light on my holding costs. I had my holding costs as follows:

    Electric - $30/month (I only pay $40 in my personal residence and I'm an all electric residence)
    Loan - $200/month (interest only at 5%...yes, it's a pretty good deal)
    Heat - $40/month w/ new boiler
    Taxes - $100/month
    Insurance - $30/month ($350/year

    Does it look like I'm missing anything?

  • Flipper · Irvine, CA · Member since 2013 · 349 posts · 45 votes
    12y

    Thanks for sharing @Liam Goble , good luck on your 1st flip and keep us updated if you can.

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    Quick update on the flip:

    I mentioned it in a different post, but my contractor gutted the entire bathroom, rather than just the tile. That was last Friday. I was getting ready to line up another contractor to take over the work, a contractor who would execute the plan, not 'think' too much about the plan.

    By Sunday, I had received a phone call from the contractor (working on the job) and he actually had a good idea for how we can repair the space and add value to the house. The lone bathroom was a really weird arrangement with a beautiful vinyl accordion door which blocked access to the only closet in the bathroom when the door was closed (ie:: if you ran out of TP you had to open the bathroom door to get more...)

    We decided to make this bathroom part of a 'master suite'. The only problem with that arrangement is that with the tub in place, there was no location for a closet (there was no closet in the bedroom at all). By putting in a shower, rather than a bath tub, we can take some of the space the tub occupied and make a small walk in closet, making the 'master suite' actually really nice (for the neighborhood).

    We have completed the demolition/tear out and have started reassembling a few bits and pieces of the house. Contractor spent significantly longer on the tear out than anticipated, but I had negotiated his rate down, which more than makes up for the extra time he spent.

    I'll post some 'before' pictures by the end of this weekend. I'll also post some 'during' photos in the very near future.

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 93 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    I used zillow to find the three most recent sales, on the same block and arrived at an ARV of $85k----> I would have a meeting with your realtor. Have your realtor do this WHILE you are watching the screen :

    Login to MLS

    Put 3 mile radius around the subject property

    Limit the properties to the type of properties that you have. If its 3BR 2BA ..look for only those

    Search ALL that sold within the area in the last 3-6 months

    Make sure realtor is not applying any other filters ESPECIALLY around the “sold price”

    Pull all the MLS# of properties sold + full pictures inside/outside. Have it download to pdf or print out ..whatever you feel more comfortable…that's your competition.

    This will tell you what you need to do exactly to be at par with competition. Do not trust your realtor …do your own due diligence. You might find exactly same information on zillow …but since MLS is the source, go there …you cannot afford to miss on ur first one

    Given the pictures you see ..you might realize that granite is not necessary etc

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Miamisburg, OH · Member since 2014 · 161 posts · 64 votes
    12y

    good luck! Looks like we're in the same boat. Keep updating with pics and I'll do the same in my thread.

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    Update on the flip after the end of the third full week:

    As my most recent update mentioned, I had a 'small' problem with my contractor: he removed all the drywall from the bathroom, rather than only the portion that needed to be removed.

    (Note to self: Should have listened to @J Scott and fired the contractor at that point)

    However, I didn't. I figured the contractor simply needed some more direction with more defined parameters from which to work.

    I was wrong.

    On Monday of this week, I had a discussion with the contractor regarding the bathroom on the 2nd floor. My contractor has wanted to almost gut the entire room; I only wanted to remove and replace most of the major components. Close to the end of our conversation, I said "Do not touch the plumbing or flooring until we've reviewed everything with my partner. We will talk Tuesday evening about this issue. Do not touch the plumbing." The contractor acknowledged this request.

    Tuesday morning, I received a phone call from my contractor. He had a few questions regarding some of the other work occurring this week. At some point in the conversation, he let slip "well, you've got all the flexibility you want in that bathroom." To which I replied: "John*, I said we're not touching that plumbing."

    He replied "Well, I figured it would be easier to replace it with plastic and people would rather plastic than cast. It only took me four or five hours yesterday [Monday] to remove the plumbing and flooring."

    Me: "John, you're kidding right?"

    John: "No, it was relatively easy, and its only going to take like two or three hours to put it all back and about $100 in materials. It'll add like $3,000 to the value of the house."

    Me: "No, it won't add anything to the value of the house because no one really cares what is under the floor. It will subtract from this flip's profitability. Don't do anything else to the 2nd floor, finish the framing on the first floor and don't plan on any more days this week until I get a chance to review the work."

    So I was hemming and hawing about what I should do, and finally decided to fire the contractor and not pay him for the removal work and reduce his final check by the estimated amount of the repairs (time and materials). This morning, I met with him to square up our accounts (I hadn't seen the bathroom yet). Strangely enough, John apologized for the 'miscommunication' regarding the bathroom. Fair enough, but still not good enough to stay on the job. John is now gone from the job.

    After leaving my meeting with John, I headed up to assess the damage with my partner and formulate a new plan forward. When I got to the house, my partner asked me "How much did you ask John to remove?" I said "just the tile and backer board, why?"

    My partner replied: "Well, the bathroom is gone." I didn't believe my partner.

    The bathroom is really gone:

    My brother is a magician and I don't think he could have done a better job at making something disappear.

    My partner and I are both contractors, so we were able to quickly formulate a new plan. A little sweat equity on our parts will right this ship, but jeeze-oh-man, this is not how I wanted to start this flip. I figured, better to quickly cut ties than let it drag on.

    *not his real name

    @Tim G. @Jimmy Hong

  • Flipper · Irvine, CA · Member since 2013 · 349 posts · 45 votes
    12y

    @Liam Goble , thanks for sharing the latest update and sorry you are having trouble with the contractor. Its easy to second guess yourself after the fact but you already fired him and have a plan to move forward. You are in better situation than most first flippers because of your contractor experience.

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Liam Goble

    do you have some pictures and a status update?

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    @Dawn Anastasi I'll get an update either tonight or tomorrow morning. Stay tuned...

  • Lompoc, CA · Member since 2014 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Can't wait to hear how this finishes up, good luck on the final product!

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    Hey all. As promised yesterday, I'm updating the progress on my flip. These pictures area little old as I spent my evening last night painting the house. I got one coat on both bathrooms and am getting the trim prepared.

    I was able to locate some granite slabs for about $14/sf, so all the countertops will be granite. My business partner has experience fabricating stone countertops, so he and I will work the blanks.

    Kitchen update: (Sorry no before pictures, but the walls were a lime green with peeling vinyl tile. The lower 'brick work' needs to be painted yet.) Bamboo floors, cabinets to be installed late this week/early next.

    The bathrooms are coming together. I don't have pictures of the new bathroom we are putting in, but it looks darn good (in my opinion). My new contractor is awesome; I plan to use him in the future. These pictures are of the bathroom that disappeared. It's a 3/4 bath in the master suite.

    @Dawn Anastasi @Jimmy Hong

    @Tim G.

    Painting to be finished late this week, toilets/cabinets installed late this week/early next.

  • Investor · NJ · Member since 2012 · 27 posts · 15 votes
    12y
    I hate when new contractors go off and do their own thing and just try and bill you for it. Good post. I'll follow this post to see your end result. Good luck!
  • Mark LangdonPro Member
    Investor · Whippany, NJ · Member since 2010 · 356 posts · 104 votes
    12y

    You did the right thing to fire the contractor. Your a great negotiator also. Watch you don't over improve. Keep us posted.

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I had an electrician once listen when I described about installing the lighting and he described a different way to do it and why it would be better. I agreed and we went through with the change. That's a whole lot better than him just listening and then doing it the way he wanted to do it and me finding out later.

  • Rental Property Investor · State College, PA · Member since 2013 · 287 posts · 99 votes
    12y

    @Dawn Anastasi , I agree. My new contractor calls me, explains why his solution would either save me money, or reduce my head aches in some other way. 100% better way of doing this work.

    @Mark Langdon Agreed (and thanks for the caution). I've toured some of the other properties currently on the market and feel the improvements I've made will help the property sell faster and at a higher value than similar properties on the market. Ultimately, my fall back plan is to keep this as a fix-and-hold. For the fix-and-hold fall back, I based all of my numbers off of last year's rent numbers. Landlords in my area are advertising lesser properties for roughly 15% - 20% higher than last year's rent. There are a variety of factors working to push those numbers higher.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.