JWB experience - My thoughts, let me know yours

Craig Oram · 2020-03-27T12:57:29-07:00

I wanted to get other people’s opinion of JWB as a PM company. I have been disappointed with the amount of fees and personal piggy bank attitude that the PM has regarding owner investments. My experience with JWB has been lackluster at best. My main complaint is, they appear to aim for your project ROI target by skimming as much money during PM as they legally can. For example: This month they charged a full month for tenant placement fee then, the same month, they charge a PM fee. During turnovers they fix everything, and by everything, I mean they look for anything that they can do to increase the SOW in order to skim as much as they can off the work costs. Many unnecessary things are repainted, redone, replaced, and rebuilt. Sure, the house will look brand new again, but it is not very good for my ROI. My last turn which happened 1.5 years after the last one costed ~$3000 of which the SOW was basically the same as it was the prior year it was turned. In addition, they "found" the AC needed to be serviced for an additional $400. Then a week later the Aerator for the well needed to be replaced for an additional $1800 (plus the JWB fee). I expressed my discontent with how they are managing the property and I was informed that my contract required me to pay for 1 year of PM fees to terminate (I should have read my contract more closely when I signed it at the beginning of March 2020).... My rent is 1700, so termination will cost me another $2040. I feel like this is a little bit like extortion, I'm clearly not happy with the business model, but it looks like I am stuck with them for another year. I have 10 other houses from different PM companies and while they all seem to charge a premium they do provide a premium when it comes to the actual "management" part of PM. The one thing that JWB does well in terms of management is trying to manage my expectations through scripted interaction and condescending comments like "maybe real estate is not a good fit for you". My other 10 SFH most of which were purchased though turnkey providers tend to stand by their product more than JWB. I'm interested if my experience is unique or if others have experienced what seems to be overcharging and price gouging.

Preston Tucker

Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 4 votes

6y

I had the exact same experience with them, the nickel and dime you through everything. I was able to get out of their management agreement at the 1 year mark, and switched to Valiant- my experience with them (a little more than 6 months so far) has been outstanding. Best of luck!

1 Reply

Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

Glad... we’ll glad is not correct. But heartened to hear someone else out there with the same experience. I have been holding out on my comments for about 2 years. After today’s experience with the extra “PM” fee tacked onto the already extremely high placement fee, I felt I had to say something. I understand that placement fee if one month is often standard for PM companies, but usually a lot of work and effort goes into placing a tenant. The last two times a tenant was placed it took them all of 24 hours to get a signed agreement. While on one hand I am happy to get it done quickly, I’m not happy that my request to raise the rent to the correct amount goes unheeded. It’s great for JWB, quick tenant placement means less work for more money, but it’s not always in the investors best interest.

1 Reply

Jeff Schechter

Developer · Nashville, TN · Member since 2016 · 484 posts · 406 votes

6y

@Craig Oram The main problem is not Turnkey. It's that the PM model itself is flawed. Think about it... If your rent is $1700, then at 10%, they are making a whopping $170 to manage the property. Unless a PM company has THOUSANDS of doors, this is not profitable. So they have to look for ways to be profitable.

We are TK company in Indianapolis (this is not a pitch), and have a strategic partnership with a unique company that does NOT mark up any maintenance or tenant turns... AT ALL. They use a fixed pricing model for all contractors. When we changed our model, we got criticized by a lot of investors that bought into the mantra that the TK company HAS to be in the PM business too. But it made sense for us, as when we gave up our PM, we gave up having to have that division be profitable. The arrangement works out fantastically, as all parties can now do what they're best at, and while we are separate entities, our services are integrated. Our partners manage thousands of doors across many markets, and make it up on volume. The important thing to consider about this model is that Property Management is now monetarily motivated to do one thing - keep your property rented. That's the way it should be.

Not sure if they operate in your area, but happy to make an introduction.

Best,

J

0 Reply

Mike D'ArrigoPro Member

Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

@Craig Oram this is a common issue. Property Managers want to make their lease up job as easy as possible and bringing a property up to like new condition is one way of doing that. Unfortunately it's not practical in a rental unit. Sometimes you have to challenge the SOW and determine if everything really needs to be done in order to attract qualified tenants. Go through each major line item and come to an agreement on what really needs to be done.

2 Reply

Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

Thanks for the reply's. I guess I'm stuck with them for 1 year (or I guess I could spend $2100 to boot them). I will be at the mercy of them for the next year unfortunately, hopefully I have few maintenance issues, this will reduce the opportunities for them to up charge.

0 Reply

Gregg CohenBusiness Member

Rental Property Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2011 · 143 posts · 136 votes

6y

Hello all. I'm one of the owners of JWB and would like to provide some additional information as well as clear up any miscommunications.

@Craig Oram - Hi Craig. It's been a while since we've had the opportunity to chat. I hope you and your family are doing well and staying safe. I can tell you're frustrated on a number of items. I've read through the notes on the conversations you had with my team as well as pulling real numbers on your maintenance and property turn costs and your lease terms.

You purchased your property in 2017 with an expected rent amount of $1,549 on the original property evaluation.

In 2018, we had a property turn and the net cost to you out of pocket was around $500 (costs to repair minus the security deposit that was returned to you.) We were also able to recover $1,550 in liquidated damages from that resident which meant that you were not out of pocket at all for that property turn.

In 2020, we just had a property turn. The actual cost of the turn is $2,843.17 but the security deposit returned to you is $1,650 (may change slightly on finalized intent to claim proceedings.) The net cost to you is roughly $1,193.17.

After the turn in 2020, your property was rented within a matter of days at a rate of $1,699. That is roughly 9% rent price appreciation over the original rent estimates. We signed a 3 year lease with your tenant for you.

It is common for rental property investors to feel the pain when a property turns over but keep in mind that is why we retain security deposits for you. The net cost of the turns is what really matters to your return on investment.

I also wanted to clear up that fact that JWB does not mark up maintenance items. If you get a plumbing bill for $100, that $100 goes directly to the plumber. Our goal is to keep your maintenance costs low to keep your return on investment high. The only time you would see a fee related to maintenance would be a project management fee if multiple trades are required during a property turn. That fee is based on the amount of work completed but is somewhere between $150-$400 typically.

As far as the 10% fee charged during the first month that we lease a property, you are correct that is a part of our fee structure. This is explained early and often with new clients and it has always been a part of our fee structure as long as you've been a client. The reason for this is there is certainly a lot of heavy lifting of resources required by a property management team to bring on a new resident including rent collection, setting proper expectations, accounting and building a positive relationship in the first month.

As far as the quick re-rent of your home, I was hoping that would be something in which you'd see the value of working with us. Renting a home in a matter of days is something we're really excited about for you as it is a great thing for your overall return on investment. Just because we did it so quick shouldn't diminish the value, hard work and systems required to produce the result for you.

I'm going to take your comments about the communication to heart. We would never want to make a client feel as if we are scripted, heartless or looking out for ways to maximize our fee structure. I'm sure there are things we can do to get better and we'll use this as a learning opportunity.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

6y

@Gregg Cohen sounds like the turn overs are well within your 10% maintenance reserves that every landlord sets aside for turn over costs.. those are large deposits your doing very good for your owners with those compared to what i see in other markets Wow. !!

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Gregg CohenBusiness Member

Rental Property Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2011 · 143 posts · 136 votes

6y

@Jay Hinrichs - Hey Jay! Nice to chat with you again. Thanks for the kind words. I'll send you a private message...I'd love to hear what you've been up to lately.

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Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

Except Gregg your not telling the whole truth. You are spouting numbers that are not entirely or even partially accurate. I appreciate your marketing skills at trying to shut down naysayers with half truths and I also appreciate you airing my private financial information on a public forum thankfully it is only partially correct. You feel you have to rebut my comment to bolster/protect your business that’s fine, but I would suggest you steer clear of exposing client financials unless your in the business of fighting legal suites rather than real estate.

3 Reply

Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

So as you can see above there are $7511 in charges for the last 3 months. $3200 was a turn, of which JWB does indeed charge 10% of the service rendered. So basically if we are going to talk about how great JWB is by saying my numbers are inaccurate... lets actually put the numbers here. So the turn... costed me $7511 + 2 months lost rent @1700/mth for a final tally of ~$11000 total. Another way of looking at this is JWB get the 4.4 moths of rent in 2020, I loose 2 month more due to vacancy, so all told my very first actuall income for this property will be... wait for it... JULY. 7 entire months. The next answer from JWB will be explaining how this is a exception, but it is not. BTW the turn that occurred 18 months prior was very similar.

So to be frank the cost are padded inflated and do not even remotely look like what other PM's are doing in the area. For example... snaking the drains at a cost of $170 during the turn... no reason, just because. Or the $258 that goes to JWB for up charge that Gregg says they do not charge (BTW I am fine with paying that... it just the fact that he said it is not charged). Or the $285 charge to fix the garage door opener, along with the $85 charge a week earlier to "tune" up the garage door. Even the $85 per yard mow seems excessive. I was willing to let this go and move on before Gregg chimed in, but now I felt required to set the record straight. Numbers... not words.

The property tax is $4000/year and I guess I can be thankful that I paid cash for this house because if I had a mortgage I would be paying significantly out of pocket every year since I have owned this home. The only silver lining is this property performance so bad, that it helps offset the gains from my other 10 homes.

1 Reply

Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

spreadsheet for above:

Date	Ref #	Location	Payee	Description	Details	Amount	Account Balance
5/1/2020	PDDQJWDLLA1	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	Coker, J.	Charge	Rent -	$1,699.00	($612.40)
4/28/2020	Unpaid Invoice Fee	RODGERS--	JWB Property Management	Journal Entry	Unpaid Invoice Fee - Unpaid Invoice Fee	($22.29)	($2,311.40)
4/26/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JEA	Bill	Utilities-02/19/20 - 03/11/20	($31.49)	($2,289.11)
4/25/2020	Check 4.25.20ALL	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JWB Property Mgmt	Bill	Management Fees-	($115.10)	($2,257.62)
4/21/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	BVD Septic LLC.	Bill	Maintenance Expense-Aerator I installed the aerator the pressure tank and the well pump	($1,350.00)	($2,142.52)
4/1/2020		ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	Coker, J.	Charge	Rent -	$1,151.00	($792.52)
3/31/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	D&D Garage Doors, Inc.	Bill	Maintenance Expense-WO#47562 S/0:00700819694 Date:03/13/20 Tech:DCONNE Donald Conner *20280720 Genie Relia G 850 Operator 1/2 HP Chain Operator has a bad logic board. Replaced with new 2028C and issue is resolved. Inst	($285.00)	($1,943.52)
3/31/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	Little Pay Mowing	Bill	Maintenance Expense-Cleanup, blow clean, extra services	($85.00)	($1,658.52)
3/30/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JEA	Bill	Utilities-01/21/20 - 02/19/20	($59.37)	($1,573.52)
3/28/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	Crossmen Home Inspections, LLC	Bill	Maintenance Expense-Locksets replaced and fire extinguishers place at move-in	($50.00)	($1,514.15)
3/28/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	Crossmen Cleaning Solutions, LLC	Bill	Maintenance Expense-March 7-10 Maintenance Cleans	($30.00)	($1,464.15)
3/25/2020	Check 3.26.20ALL	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JWB Property Mgmt	Bill	Management Fees-	($169.90)	($1,434.15)
3/20/2020	Online Bank Transfer	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JWB Property Mgmt	Bill	Tenant Placement-	($1,699.00)	($1,264.25)
3/12/2020		ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	Coker, J.	Charge	Rent -	$1,699.00	$434.75
2/26/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JEA	Bill	Utilities-12/30/19 - 01/21/20	($46.10)	($1,264.25)
2/18/2020		ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	Simonds - Amerson-Ballard - Firi - Trombley	Charge	Turn Over Expense -	$1,650.00	($1,218.15)
2/18/2020	SD Forfeit	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	JWB Property Management	Check	Bank Transfer - Security Deposit transfer for	($1,650.00)	($2,868.15)
2/18/2020	SD Forfeit	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	JWB Property Management	Check	Bank Transfer - Security Deposit transfer for	$1,650.00	($4,518.15)
2/18/2020	ACH	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JWB Construction Group LLC	Bill	Turn Over Expense-	($3,268.15)	($2,868.15)
1/25/2020		ORAM--	Craig Oram	Nacha Export	Owner Draw -	($270.00)	$400.00
1/25/2020	Check 1.26.20ALL	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-	JWB Property Mgmt	Bill	Management Fees-	($30.00)	$670.00
1/1/2020	BT4G891LLA4	ORAM-2910BROUGHAM-2910BROUGHAM	tenant	Charge	Rent -	$300.00	$700.00

0 Reply

Craig Oram

OP

Fremont, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 13 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Gregg Cohen sounds like the turn overs are well within your 10% maintenance reserves that every landlord sets aside for turn over costs.. those are large deposits your doing very good for your owners with those compared to what i see in other markets Wow. !!

Does that look like 10% to you???? see my post.

0 Reply

Gregg CohenBusiness Member

Rental Property Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2011 · 143 posts · 136 votes

6y

Hi @Craig Oram,

I can see that there are still a number of issues that we’re just not on the same page about. I’d love to come to a meeting of the minds and a public forum probably isn’t the best place to do that. I’d be happy to jump on a call with you or chat over a private message if you’re open to that.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Craig Oram:

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Gregg Cohen sounds like the turn overs are well within your 10% maintenance reserves that every landlord sets aside for turn over costs.. those are large deposits your doing very good for your owners with those compared to what i see in other markets Wow. !!

Does that look like 10% to you???? see my post.

I would point out that you have a higher end home here.. its not a 70k rental in the mid west were you just squirt some paint on the walls and put die on the carpet etc.. Nice new homes are going to run more to keep in great shape.. I think many miss this point.. For instance in the real world.. i bought 12 brand new constructions back in the Katrina days .. this was in the top county in Mississippi they ranged 150k to 225k each.. WE did this for go zone tax bene's which worked well in those years.

but the issue comes that keeping nice bigger new homes in great shape just cost more than little rental dingers.. and in fact as i sold them off I had to do 10 to 20k of cap ex on each one to get full market price.. What i did not have to do while owning them though was roof plumbing elec appliances stuff like that.. those lasted a good long while.. But at turnover you needed better paint and change out window coverings almost always.. change carpet every other tenant.. glad i had concrete floors in the main living areas.. I mean this stuff happens in rental houses that are nice and newer or new. you either keep them in great shape which cost money or you buy rentals that you simply do minimal work on as the tenants paying 700 or 800 month have a very different expectation than a tenant paying 1700 a month.

And like you said one out of 10 thats not bad.. maybe you just got that bad tenant it happens to very landlord.

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Andrey Y.

Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Gregg Cohen:

Hi @Craig Oram,

I can see that there are still a number of issues that we’re just not on the same page about. I’d love to come to a meeting of the minds and a public forum probably isn’t the best place to do that. I’d be happy to jump on a call with you or chat over a private message if you’re open to that.

Craig,

Can you comment on this resolution?

I am confused how the numbers Gregg and Craig are stating are so far off. Something isn't adding up.

1 Reply

Dawn Bertrand

Member since 2023 · 1 post · 0 votes

3y

You're instincts are correct. I lived the JWB experience for 3yrs. I'm a contractor so i will tell ya their vendors do a half butt job at the repairs and "remodels" inbetween tenants. Wood Floors not sealed, tile not properly installed and grouted, cheap flat paint that the tenants can't wipe finger prints or food splashes off, countertops not caulked so water gets behind causing water damages, the cabinets were painted over not replaced the list goes on and on. I had to tell their plummer how to fix my shower he didn't fully listen to me so about 3-6 months later the problem returned. I had to explain 5x's to their maintenance line that I didn't need to change a light bulb and the breaker was on. The balast in the 15yr old kitchen light went bad please send an electrician! Never replaced the broken fence or gate from the hurricanes. (I have children that could no longer play in the backyard unless someone sat and watched them) i replaced the 15yr old garbage disposal out of my pocket so I wouldn't have to deal with the incompetent plummer again. They also extort their tenants with fees, break payment contracts, judges orders and their accounting department competency is questionable. They keep 2 different rental payment logs. The 1 behind closed doors and the tenant portal log doesn't always match. Their online payment system doesn't recognize non traditional banks (credit unions) so your hit with $27 fee to pay with debit or have to take time out of your schedule and go to a Western Union for a $3.95 fee. As of March 2023 they still refused tenants to pay in person or come to their offices. Covid scare has been over for a long time. Seems Sketchy. Some tenants received a $400 rent hike in 2021 and 2022. They have this new monthly air filter delivery program now. My co worker has never received one it's been 7 months since she signed up. She called the vendor and they told her it was bi-monthly not monthly. Still no air filter. More money making fees.

0 Reply

Gregg CohenBusiness Member

Rental Property Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2011 · 143 posts · 136 votes

3y

Hi @Dawn Bertrand,

I'm sorry that you feel this way about your experience as a resident of JWB. We hope to create a win-win-win scenario for all involved and it's always a learning lesson when that doesn't happen.

There is some additional information that wasn't mentioned in your post above which sheds a different light on the situation.

1. JWB spent $2,300 on renovations prior to you moving into the home. This is not an example of "skimping" on costs to get a home ready.

2. There were 2 plumber work orders during the lease. During both work orders, we dispatched a licensed and insured plumber. We only work with licensed and insured vendors.

3. Regarding the electrical issue - we always attempt to troubleshoot with the resident prior to dispatching a vendor. This allows us to save time for you as a resident and save money for the owner of the property. For the kitchen light, we did end up sending out a licensed electrician and the issue was resolved within 1 week.

4. There are significant details that I'm choosing to leave out regarding rent payments and balance left for the owner as you terminated the lease early. These are still unresolved and are a cost to the owner.

5. For payment processing, we use Stripe. This is a major processing platform used across the US which accepts legitimate payments from any banking institution.

6. Rents in Jacksonville have risen over the past few years and we have a responsibility to our property owners to deliver market rent. Keep in mind that property owners have experience significant hikes in their costs as well (property insurance and property taxes).

7. As far as filter delivery - filters are delivered every 60 days. We receive weekly reporting from our third-party vendor on filter deliveries, and have very few errors. There have been times when a filter was delayed or a resident receives the incorrect size. However, anytime errors are caught or delays are identified, we work quickly to resolve the issue.

We care deeply about creating strong relationships with our residents and our property owners. I'm sorry that you feel mistreated, but I can assure you that both JWB and the property owner lost in this equation as well.

We wish you the best of luck moving forward.

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Grace Chung

Investor · Central Florida · Member since 2019 · 6 posts · 2 votes

3y

Thank you for posting this.

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Tim J.

Investor · Vermont and New York · Member since 2023 · 308 posts · 309 votes

3y

Quote from @Gregg Cohen: