Structuring a fair deal

Structuring a fair deal

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes

Okay, I have a question that I want to put forth for debate. I am considering possibly teaming up with an investor (any investor down the road) and I want any deal structured to be fair to both sides. So here is my question:

I own my own small remodeling business here in Columbus, Ohio. I currently have some properties that I have purchased, remodeled, and renting out but I am thinking about getting into the flipping business. I don’t know how I would structure a deal that would be attractive enough to encourage an investor to come on board.

What I have to offer is the skills, manpower, and license to do the work that would be needed to turn around a property and have it ready for sale. The problem is, by being self-employed the banks see me as a risk even though I have been in business for several years and produce a decent living for myself. I can get a signature loan at a high interest rate but if I do that then I may as well look at using hard money, I don’t want to go the hard money route.

What I was thinking about doing was teaming up with a financial investor (100% of the funds) and I rehab the property using my company to do this. In other words, my company would get paid to rehab the property which I would make money on and take part in the split of the profits. Here is my dilemma: is it fair of me to ask someone to put forth the funds to acquire the property that I will rehab at a cost and expect a fair split on the flip? And, what would the split look like? 50/50, 60/40???

If I were the investor I am not sure if I would go for this kind of a deal because I would feel the other guy (me) doesn’t have any real skin in the game. On the other hand, should I be expected to provide the rehabbing at costs? As a business owner I could not do this since I have direct and indirect overhead costs. And, someone has to be paid to do the work and I am sure they would make a profit so why not me???

From an investor stand point I would be thinking: “Okay, you get paid to remodel and you want half the split on the sale? What if it doesn’t sale or sales for way less than projected? I put my money on the line and might not make anything but you make money on the remodel? I DON’T THINK SO SCOOTER!” I have kicked this around for a while and cannot come up with the answer that feels right for both sides. Obviously I’m trying to be fair but at the same time if I am going to put my staff on a project for 60-90 days I need to generate a profit so I can pay them and myself. What do I do?

I would like for anyone that has been in this type of situation to chime in and tell me how you structured your deal. Of course, I can keep doing the “buy one house at a time, rehab and rent it out” but it is too slow. Anyway, here is some additional information that will be important to know for your analysis:

  • -I currently own 3 units with 2 of the 3 producing income. The third is going to get some minor rehab and be rented out within 60 days. I use the rents to pay off rehab costs (credit cards and such) which will be paid within 18-24 months. Rents total $1500-$2000 a month and the remaining unit should rent for around $750 when it is ready in a few months. Any money goes directly to paying off debt and building for next acquisition.
  • -Bought my first property 3 years ago.
  • -I do not have a mortgage on any of the properties but I do have a signature loan of 15k on my most recent acquisition that will be ready in 60 days.

Thanks to all of you that post to this and trying to assist me. I look forward to your constructive input 

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  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    50/50 split + material costs, but not labor.  If you're going to be paid as a contractor with no risk, I wouldn't want you to also split the profit.  Either or would be fairer to me @Jerry Sexton Your labor is your contribution.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Thanks for your input Steve! Are you saying I should pay for the labor or not profit from the labor?

    If I was to pay for the labor out of my pocket and do the 50/50 I would be better off going the hard money route and that is what I am trying to avoid. That would be thousands of dollars on my end and I would be at a disadvantage would I not? 

    If you were implying that only direct labor to be covered and no profit until sale of house that would be a little more understandable. Where am I going wrong? Thanks in advance for your reply.

  • Wholesaler · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    hi Jerry, If I were to buy a property and pay you to do the rehab why would I feel the need to split the profit. I guess what I'm saying or asking is what are you bringing to the table for me to split the profit. 

  • Investor · Reading, PA · Member since 2014 · 196 posts · 118 votes
    10y
    What Chad Miller said was my thought. If I am bringing 100% of the financing, what can you offer that deserves a split in profits? If you charge as normal, it would appear to be a better deal for me to just hire another contractor that charges the same amount, and I keep 100%. Depending on the actual numbers, maybe you supply materials, at cost (if you can get better pricing), and pay the labor out of pocket. Then your hope is that your cut is enough to recoup your out of pocket expenses, just like the person financing hopes the sale recoups his out of pocket.
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2016 · 114 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    I too am wondering about this.  Because if Jerry Sexton didn't have his own remodeling business, he would instead be managing a contractor who does and/or putting some of his own sweat equity into the place.  I would think he's bringing some added advantages to the table with his remodeling company, with costs, and having total control over the process.  But seems maybe it would make more sense to also split the profit on the remodel, or simply discount that profit to maybe half of what he usually charges, so it's perhaps less of a conflict of interest in a sense.  I am wondering some of these same questions - as our next flip, we will be using private friend money, and I'm wondering what might the split be for us doing all the labor in the rehab ourselves, vs. hiring somebody to do it, which would then be a cost that comes off the top.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    As I'm reading these responses, here's what I'm "hearing"...

    Folks want to see a guy go out and find a property to rehab, borrow your money to do the deal (i.e., you're "the bank"), he does all the work including finding the property and selling the finished rehab, he gets paid like an employee and you get all the profit with no effort into the deal ("skin in the game").

    ...or, did I miss something?

    @Chad Miller, what @Jerry Sexton brings to the table is the property, the labor and the management.

    David J Dachtera

  • Wholesaler · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    if the deal was structured the way you state above I would want a guaranteed % of return on my money instead of a chanced 50/50 split. Especially if I don't know the person. Just my thoughts. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2012 · 874 posts · 648 votes
    10y
    Why the aversion to hard money?
  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason Krick:

    What Chad Miller said was my thought. If I am bringing 100% of the financing, what can you offer that deserves a split in profits? If you charge as normal, it would appear to be a better deal for me to just hire another contractor that charges the same amount, and I keep 100%.

    Depending on the actual numbers, maybe you supply materials, at cost (if you can get better pricing), and pay the labor out of pocket. Then your hope is that your cut is enough to recoup your out of pocket expenses, just like the person financing hopes the sale recoups his out of pocket.

     Thanks for your input Jason.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

    As I'm reading these responses, here's what I'm "hearing"...

    Folks want to see a guy go out and find a property to rehab, borrow your money to do the deal (i.e., you're "the bank"), he does all the work including finding the property and selling the finished rehab, he gets paid like an employee and you get all the profit with no effort into the deal ("skin in the game").

    ...or, did I miss something?

    @Chad Miller, what @Jerry Sexton brings to the table is the property, the labor and the management.

    David J Dachtera

     David, simply put my ultimate goal here is to find a way to structure a deal that is win win. Being self employed makes it difficult to get any real money from the bank. I am looking for advice how one might structure a deal where I get in on the split but the only thing I have to offer is my services as a remodeling contractor. In other words, how can I get "skin in the game" in order to be attractive to an investor. Remember, I am looking for advice from the community on ways to structure a deal. Thanks for your input David.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Dan Schwartz:

    Why the aversion to hard money?

     Dan, to be completely honest its probably more of lack of understanding than anything else. From what I hear on the broadcasts and the limited amount of reading makes me worry about not meeting timelines and going broke. 

    Thanks for your input Dan.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Kathryn Bowden:

    I too am wondering about this.  Because if Jerry Sexton didn't have his own remodeling business, he would instead be managing a contractor who does and/or putting some of his own sweat equity into the place.  I would think he's bringing some added advantages to the table with his remodeling company, with costs, and having total control over the process.  But seems maybe it would make more sense to also split the profit on the remodel, or simply discount that profit to maybe half of what he usually charges, so it's perhaps less of a conflict of interest in a sense.  I am wondering some of these same questions - as our next flip, we will be using private friend money, and I'm wondering what might the split be for us doing all the labor in the rehab ourselves, vs. hiring somebody to do it, which would then be a cost that comes off the top.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Thanks for your input Kathryn. The next time I have a thought I am going to reach out to you and let you write it for me!!! Obviously you can see my end of the argument and see why I might be a bit bias in my thoughts which is why I reached out to BP community. I can and would be willing to lower my markup to add to the deal but I cannot do it at cost. But on the other hand David Dachtera made a pretty simple argument as well. I'm begging to think I need to keep with my current plan of buy cheap, fix up, pay off in 2-3 years and do over again...

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chad Miller:

    if the deal was structured the way you state above I would want a guaranteed % of return on my money instead of a chanced 50/50 split. Especially if I don't know the person. Just my thoughts. 

     Thanks for your input Chad.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    An investor perspective... you have to define your value-add over me just finding another contractor and pocketing 100% of the profit. Could be one of:

    1) you are eating the upfront labor cost.... I have actually seen this model between an investor and a contractor I know. In this model you are expecting to get more than your standard labor rate via 50% of the profits from the flip as a return.

    2) You are not eating the upfront labor costs during rehab, but.....you have some way of finding seriously great property bargains and are bringing a flipping investor into a highly profitable deal that they could not easily find on their own. You could even work with a buy-and-hold investor by pre-agreeing to an after-rehab price, have the investor cash you out at that price when finished. This could be huge right now because good deals are getting very hard to find.

    3) you guarantee the investor a specific return on their money... basically hard money.

    Who's finding the deals in your arrangement? That's a key detail. If you are finding them (and they are good), you have a lot more value to bring to the table. 

  • Investor · Reading, PA · Member since 2014 · 196 posts · 118 votes
    10y

    @Chad Miller

    My statement was a genuine question, not to come down on your thought process.  I was simply asking for clarity as to what would be different from the deal you describe as opposed to me just hiring you to do the work on my flip.  If you are the responsible for sourcing, negotiating, and getting the deal under contract, that is a different scenario.  Someone who does all of that, and then brings renovation expertise with their own team to a financial partner is a different situation than how I initially read your scenario.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

     @Jerry Sexton,

    If you bring the deal, the analysis, the plan, the labor, etc. and show private lenders the numbers so they see how they profit from investing with you and how their investment is protected, why would they not do the deal with you?

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @William Carroll:

    An investor perspective... you have to define your value-add over me just finding another contractor and pocketing 100% of the profit. Could be one of:

    1) you are eating the upfront labor cost.... I have actually seen this model between an investor and a contractor I know. In this model you are expecting to get more than your standard labor rate via 50% of the profits from the flip as a return.

    2) You are not eating the upfront labor costs during rehab, but.....you have some way of finding seriously great property bargains and are bringing a flipping investor into a highly profitable deal that they could not easily find on their own. You could even work with a buy-and-hold investor by pre-agreeing to an after-rehab price, have the investor cash you out at that price when finished. This could be huge right now because good deals are getting very hard to find.

    3) you guarantee the investor a specific return on their money... basically hard money.

    Who's finding the deals in your arrangement? That's a key detail. If you are finding them (and they are good), you have a lot more value to bring to the table. 

     Super info William! These are some great ideas and a different way of looking at deals. Thanks for your input.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

     @Jerry Sexton,

    If you bring the deal, the analysis, the plan, the labor, etc. and show private lenders the numbers so they see how they profit from investing with you and how their investment is protected, why would they not do the deal with you?

     That's the plan David, just gathering ideas before I put something together. Thanks for the additional input.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason Krick:

    @Chad Miller

    My statement was a genuine question, not to come down on your thought process.  I was simply asking for clarity as to what would be different from the deal you describe as opposed to me just hiring you to do the work on my flip.  If you are the responsible for sourcing, negotiating, and getting the deal under contract, that is a different scenario.  Someone who does all of that, and then brings renovation expertise with their own team to a financial partner is a different situation than how I initially read your scenario.

     Jason, lets say I met your requirements (as an investor) that you laid out. How would you see the (as an example) a deal being made that would be lucrative to an investor? Also, I didn't take your comment as anything negative or being rude. The questions need to be hard in order to help me see the other side of the argument. Right now the consensus seems to be, based on my so called plan, is that I would have little to offer! Perhaps I need to figure another angle that would make me more attractive to a potential investor. Thanks again for your valuable input.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chad Miller:

    if the deal was structured the way you state above I would want a guaranteed % of return on my money instead of a chanced 50/50 split. Especially if I don't know the person. Just my thoughts. 

     Chad, thanks for your input. Clearly I need to come up with something else to bring to the table in order to make myself attractive to potential investors. If you happen to think of anything else please post!

  • Wholesaler · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    Jerry after elreading more of the responses and seeing what you are asking maybe I didn't understand the full question. I could see a split if you were to find the property, rehab, and sell, using all investment money for the purchase and rehab. I would see the investor wanting to be a little hands on at first until there was a level of trust or a few deals have gone through making the investor some money. More less you would get a hard money loan being paid on the back end of the deal. 

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chad Miller:

    Jerry after elreading more of the responses and seeing what you are asking maybe I didn't understand the full question. I could see a split if you were to find the property, rehab, and sell, using all investment money for the purchase and rehab. I would see the investor wanting to be a little hands on at first until there was a level of trust or a few deals have gone through making the investor some money. More less you would get a hard money loan being paid on the back end of the deal. 

     That's what I'm starting to think...

  • Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 636 posts · 486 votes
    10y

    @William Carroll and @David Dachtera have the right idea, IMO. If you bring the deal and it's got some meat on it, you shouldn't get too much pushback from an investor to pay your company to do the work and to split some of the profits. After all, they'd need to hire contractors either way, right?

    Now if you're not also bringing the deal or doing the work at cost, they might as well just hire their own contractors and keep 100% of the profits. Simple as that.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Thanks for your input Jacob. 

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