What are some good value-add strategies in San Francisco?

What are some good value-add strategies in San Francisco?

Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking to buy somewhere within the city of San Francisco as an owner occupier. 

It seems that in many markets, the biggerpockets game plan is to buy a somewhat distressed multiplex, add value through improving/remodeling the property, and increase rents because of that added value. However, in San Francisco, most mulitplex buildings are rent controlled and have a web of regulation surrounding evictions, rent increases and therefore limit how much value you can add by improving the building or running it better.

What are some good value-add strategies to use within the city? Let's keep discussion to the SF municipality only, since laws vary drastically around the bay. Here are some ideas I've seen: 

-Take advantage of the duplex expedited condo conversion program. This allows two owners, working together, to subdivide a duplex into condos after 1 year of owner occupation, which removes the building from rent control and adds substantial resale value. Fix up building in process.

-Buy weak cash flows. A lot of the cheapest buildings (by square footage) have deeply below market rate units and very low CAP rates. In this case, you need to play the waiting game because at some point, those units will clear, you can rehab the unit to bring up the going rental rate and refill the unit at a rent level potentially many times the current rate (and a corresponding increase in equity). This will give you bad cash flows (at least to start) but periodic 'bumps' in value as people cycle out of apartments. Problem is that this is really hard to forecast so your IRR has a very wide confidence band and your cashflows are likely negative for a long time.

-TIC conversion? I don't know much about this but there might be something here. I'd love to hear more.

-Capital Improvement passthroughs? Again, I don't know much here, but there may be positive ROI in this program.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks and find out what's working for others. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere. It's a tricky market we have here, but there's got to be some value somewhere.

Thanks for responses in advance.

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Johnson H.Pro Member
Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
9y

Besides what others have said, another way to add value in San Francisco is to add square footage because the price of construction per sq ft is lower than the resale price per sq ft depending on the area. Either with buying a two story house with an unfinished first floor and finishing and the first floor with extra bedrooms or inlaw unit, extending a building out if the property lot is long or adding a third floor. 

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  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 14 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    As a long time SF resident and owner of 4 units, here are my thoughts. I would learn more about condo conversions and tics. Maybe speak with a real estate attorney to get up to speed on known issues ( I already rec Andrew Zacks once today, I should start getting a referral fee). You already know the negatives with low cash flow properties and you may even be overly optimistic re tenant turnover. Capital improvements passthroughs have a ceiling as to allowable rent increases per year, tough on your IRR. Since you seem interested in improving properties, the one idea not mentioned, is finding a property that will delivered totally vacant, but beat up. They are out there and you will pay some premium over other occupied properties because of all the tenant issues but will save you much hassle.

  • CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @ Chris larsson 

    I have invested in SF (Pac height, Russian hill) for 10 years now, looked up and down, left and right.... And to be honest, the only way I see is to buy and wait.... 

    Now if you are deep pocket, like $5 to 10m deep, you can sometimes buy rundown MFH, rehab and put on market to sell.... But due to all the renter protection laws, if you buy a property, you sometimes have to wait 3-5 years just for tenants to agree to be "bought out" so that you can do the rehab.....and those "bought out" can be $100K each tenant....So.....

    I have a friend who just bought a condo with a 82 years old tenant in it.... Becasue of that, he paid $800K for a $1.6M condo.. the tenant is currently paying $700 when market rent is $6000....he kept saying he wonder if he is going to die first or his inherited tenant... Lol

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Dan Redmond,

    Thanks for the response. I have a legal contact I've been meaning to call on those issues, but great to have a backup, thanks for the name. 

    I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about tenant turnover, I wonder if there's any guideline for this or way to get plausible estimates. Vacant and beat up is a good idea, I'll keep a lookout for those.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Diane G. 

    Thanks for the info. Definitely not $5-10m deep, but an interesting idea. 

    I've run the numbers on buyouts and yes, in some cases even a $100k+ buyout can give good ROI.

    I also looked at a building recently with a tenant in a similar situation to yours mentioned. It's very strange to me that landlords would need to be concerned with the life expectancy of their tenants, but here we are. Perhaps your friend should have consulted an actuary ; )

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    I've come to the conclusion (echoed by others) that expedited condo conversion seems to be really the only good deal in the SF market. The question is how do you find condo conversion deals? It'd be much appreciated if anyone has tips.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    9y

    Besides what others have said, another way to add value in San Francisco is to add square footage because the price of construction per sq ft is lower than the resale price per sq ft depending on the area. Either with buying a two story house with an unfinished first floor and finishing and the first floor with extra bedrooms or inlaw unit, extending a building out if the property lot is long or adding a third floor. 

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    Warning of caution against condo conversions: If you don't do all the paperwork right, including maintaining the HOA (as in, you fail to check ONE single box), then no one can get a 30YF Fannie mortgage on it, and POOF there went all your value.

    I've encountered more failed condo conversions than successful ones. 

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Hi Saikat,

    To qualify for condo conversion, two people need to live in each unit of a duplex as co-owners for at least one year. So you need to either find an empty duplex with a co-buyer you trust, and who can also make a similarly sized investment to yours, or you need to buy a building yourself and work to find a second buyer (and evict within the rules if necessary). 

    An empty duplex is easy enough to find on Zillow / MLS, etc. But the second buyer is a little more difficult. My guess is the best bet is to buy your own place (assuming you can float the down payment for several months), and then sell half as a TIC when you find an appropriate partner. If not, I would start looking for partners first.

    A lawyer is obviously a must for that sort of project.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Chris Mason

    >I've encountered more failed condo conversions than successful ones

    Scary stuff. In your opinion is this because they didn't use a lawyer, or for different reasons?

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    Thanks @Chris Larsson. I have a co-owner that I trust.

    I'm just having trouble finding duplexes that qualify for a condo conversion. Most of them have OMI evictions, buyouts, or too many occupied tenants to make it feasible. Was wondering if there was a way I didn't have to individually screen each property.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    one thing fer sur, they shor do roll out the welcome matt for San Francisco investors!

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    @Johnson H. - do you have any criteria you look for to see if a property has expansion potential? It's hard to figure if the first floor passes the zoning requirements for building out an area or if the setback requirements allow you to extend out the building. What do you do to estimate the expansion potential of a property? Do you hire an architect or just go through the zoning laws very carefully?

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    @Amit M. - It's nothing new. If you work at tech you will see or hear "Die techie scum" pretty much everywhere.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Saikat,

    You can email the listing broker and ask for the 'disclosure package' which will be 50-100 pages of legal documentation. This should include info on past evictions, OMI or otherwise. That could save you running all over the city on your Saturdays. The information is also maintained with the city, though I don't know if it's readily accessible online.

  • Real Estate Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Oops, doublepost.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chris Larsson:

    @Chris Mason

    >I've encountered more failed condo conversions than successful ones

    Scary stuff. In your opinion is this because they didn't use a lawyer, or for different reasons?

     Honestly, I'm not involved until months/years after the failed condo conversion started, and by then the seller is always "zomg I want to sell ASAP and for top dollar because this was my get rich quick scheme," at which point I chuckle to myself and politely end the conversation (as a lender, I do not work for sellers).

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 365 votes
    9y

    @Chris Larsson I own 3 SFR's in SF. I have added value to each by buying fixer-uppers like @Dan Redmond suggests and partnering with a great contractor. I bought a place 2 years ago and did a cosmetic fix for $30K which added about twice that value. I am now doing a bigger fix on another place--new kitchen, bathrooms, floors. This will add significant value. I love @Johnson H.'s suggestion to look for unfinished basements with decent ceiling height. These are great value plays. Finally, look for zoning opportunities, e.g. one of my SFR's is actually zoned R3 and should have great value-add potential by adding units. Would love input on that and I will post a separate thread...

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    9y

    @Saikat Bhadra - A good plan of action is to tour the property and measure the height yourself, view other properties in the neighborhood and see what has been allowed in the past, talk to the city about what you want to do to see what is allowed for the house and speak with a few contractors and architects that work in the city to get their ideas and ballpark cost estimates. I haven't personally done this myself but I know as a native, finishing the basement is common in many areas of this city. Due note that if you're going to finish the first floor, it's a great time to add earthquake anchor bolts to the foundation if you wish, add drainage to a concrete backyard and garage if there isn't any yet and update/add to the existing plumbing and electrical (also add Ethernet and new cable) before all areas get enclosed with Sheetrock. Just a few ideas, good luck and please let us know how it goes!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Saikat Bhadra:

    @Amit M. - It's nothing new. If you work at tech you will see or hear "Die techie scum" pretty much everywhere.

    It's not the same thing at all. As a tech worker you can live wherever you want. As an SF property owner your asset (and your liability, and the landlording laws, etc.) are directly effected by the prevailing attitudes of the population. But good luck to you

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 90 votes
    9y

    @Chris Larsson great question. i've been doing a ton of research on this myself. re: condo conversion, as others have suggested. do your diligence on eviction history, call the rental board and give them the address and make sure the eviction history is clean. This can make it harder to find a qualified property, but here's a good post about condo conversion/evictions. http://www.andysirkin.com/HTMLArticle.cfm?Article=...

    On my end, I'm in the process of buying an SFR that has an illegal in-law below that I want to legalize. There are a number of ways to do this, duplex (b/c zoning is RH2), ADU, etc. but it depends on the property's zoning.

    If you truly want to condo convert a 2 unit building, it basically has to have no tenants (unless you're willing to hold off until they leave), but as others mentioned you can add more sq. footage. Check with the planning dept what the max height is for your building. Also I think the rule is there must be a 45% setback of your total property depth so do your measurements. This is also a very handy resource: http://propertymap.sfplanning.org/ plug in the property address and you'll find out zoning, sq footage on file w/ the city, complaints, past permits and more.

    One more thing I'd highly encourage you to do is to go to the SF planning dept in person and ask questions. There are a ton of resources in that building.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    It's not actually true that condo converting removes rent control. AFAIK:

    1. You must sell all but one of the units in the building before you can eliminate the limits on raising rent.

    2. Most other tenant protections still apply

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