Can you refuse section 8 in PA?

Question

My friend has a rental in PA and is currently looking to fill its vacancy. He received a call from someone asking if he accepts section 8 and without knowing the law he said no. I know that this can potentially be discriminatory in some states. So I'm wondering if it actually is discrimination in Pennsylvania?

Patti Robertson · Answer

In Virginia, “source of income” becomes a protected class, just like felony status.  We can hold tenants to the same standard as non-voucher tenants, as long as we set rental criteria and screen consistently.  Saying “I don’t accept SEC 8 because my house has not been approved” is not an allowable reason to deny a voucher holder, because no property is inspected until after the tenant applies and the paperwork about the property is submitted to the housing authority.  What a landlord could say is they require an income of 3X the rent, but they have to add in the amount the tenant will receive as a rent subsidy as income.  What I find troubling is that at the time of screening, neither the tenant nor the landlord has any real clue what the amount of the subsidy will be.  Yes, we know the maximum limit for that bedroom size in our city, and we know that 30% of the tenant’s income will be allocated for their portion of rent and utilities. What we don’t know is 1) what SEC 8 will deem as “reasonable rent” for our unit and 2) how much SEC 8 will guesstimate the utilities for our unit will be.  It is impossible for a landlord to know how much to include for “voucher income” without knowing this data at the time of the tenant screening.  Personally, I accept SEC 8, and we require a voucher tenant have at least one times the rent in documented, verifiable and reliable income. We have found that if they have that, it is pretty likely our requested rent will be approved.

Taylor E. · Answer

If you're slumming in an overpriced/slumlord area like Oakland and Shadyside or Philadelphia, you're not going to have a property fit for Section 8 anyways. And while Sec 8 tenants are free to apply, the landlord can simply choose not to fix the property. And considering that PA is infested with slumlords and gullible students and internationals willing to pay for high market rates for low quality like in NYC (without the NYC opportunities or amenities), it's not surprising that Sec 8 is simply not as popular here. Frankly, I've never had a problem with HUD/Section 8 or their tenants, as a property manager or otherwise. If you take care of your property, screen your tenants, take the time to document things well, and most of all, network with the inspectors, you'll be fine. (Or just get a good property manager.)

Section 8 is how every landlord I know (that isn't depending on loan modifications and cursing eviction moratoriums right now) is surviving record recessions and income gaps. It's always good to mix your portfolio with reliable, secure investments. I'd rather have a few picky inspectors and nepotist PHA offices to fight with than 6 frat parties per weekend for years on end with no deposits large enough to cover the damages. Large semester gaps and young immature students with barely any rental history or life experience can damage your place and skip out on a judgment just as well as any Section 8 tenant (in fact, in Pittsburgh, people who owe on a judgment can't be on Sec 8).

Steve Babiak · Answer

IMO it's not discriminatory - yet.

A Section 8 rental has to pass an inspection by the county Housing Authority, and they are slow and too picky. And you also have to agree to follow the Housing Authority's lease requirements. Like many others, I'm not willing to go along with ceding that control to a third party.

Steve Babiak · Answer

That is correct, the landlord might not know those amounts. But guess what? The county Housing Authority DOES know those amounts, and the tenant is able to get that information from their case worker.

And landlords sometimes don’t have much luck contacting a case worker, so you have to insist on the tenant getting those amounts. In the county where I tried this, there is a utility allowance chart that shows how much of a reduction in the voucher amount that goes to the landlord can be expected, and it even shows reductions for appliances the landlord does not include. You can have the tenant get a copy of that chart.

I found that in my units, the reduction for things I don’t include ends up getting me a net rent that is less than what I can get from a tenant that pays the whole rent on their own.  So I don’t bother any more.

Anthony Angotti · Answer

@Roberto Lugo

I'm not an attorney however we simply say that we do not participate in ACHA voucher programs or similar programs.

Personally it's more because of the required repairs than the tenant selection. Trying to work with the section 8 inspectors has been a special type of hell for us. Just because they continually move the goalposts. You'll fix everything they want and then they come back and ask for a whole new list. And we don't keep slummy apartments either. . . . always something new with them.

It's easier to just not deal with them.

Chris K. · Answer

@Roberto Lugo

Not an expert on this topic but here is where the law is as it stands. Federal Law does not require that a landlord accept a Section 8 tenant. Yet many municipalities passed local ordinances that basically require the landlord to accept such tenants. Those laws are called "source of income" laws.

Last time I checked, there is an ongoing case in Pennsylvania regarding whether Pittsburgh has the power to pass such laws. I believe the city lost again and is now filing a second appeal to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

So the answer to your question will depend on the location of the rental. Assuming that your friends live in the area where they have such laws, the question then becomes whether such laws are enforceable.

Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

Steve Babiak · Answer

This is true. But there’s more to it too. A Section 8 tenant can have a voucher that on its face would seem to be more than the landlord’s asking rent. But once you subtract things that aren’t included in the rent from the voucher amount, for the utility and appliances that Section 8 thinks should be included in the rent, then the landlord can end up netting less than a free market tenant would pay.

Karl B. · Answer

You can 100% say no in Pennsylvania. I do. Why? Because Section 8 is ridiculously strict. I don't feel like having all my windows replaced or at the very least repairing the sash cords when I can get a higher rent than Section 8 will pay me.

Case in point (and I've told this story several times on BP): I had a section 8 tenant who was paying $438 per month for a one bedroom. I didn't attempt to raise her rent until she failed to tell me her toilet was running which ended up costing over $400 in water and sewer above and beyond what it should have been.

When it came time to ask for more money I sent a letter to Section 8 and they rejected it, telling me $450 is the most they pay in my neighborhood for a one bedroom.

A few months later the tenant O.D.s and dies and I rehab the unit and rent it out to non-Section 8 tenants for $590. If my local Housing Authority isn't going to pay market rent I won't deal with them in the future.

Nancy Roth · Answer

Maryland and DC have "income discrimination" prohibitions similar to what @Patti Robertson describes in VA. There has been a lot of fuss about this in DC because certain landlords (foolishly) advertised that they accepted no vouchers a year or two ago. I have nothing against the tenants who hold vouchers, but I also hate the Section 8 program like hell because of its bureaucracy and lack of transparency and that whole ridiculous inspection process. No law can compel me to participate in it. But I wouldn't advertise disrespectfully about vouchers,either. That's asking for trouble.

David Smith · Answer

Instead, you can say " it is not a section 8 ready yet".  Also in PA, landlords set the rent -- if the the rent offered by section 8 is lower than your asking rent, you can surely reject the tenant.

Can you refuse section 8 in PA?

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