The Largest Street Gang in America

[J Scott]

Vikram C. posted in another thread about how many politicians -- due to their stature and position -- believe they are above the law.

This comment reminded me of a great (though disturbing) set of videos I saw a few months ago that I think a lot of people here would find very interesting. Here is a link to the first video that is about 10 minutes long; once it completes, Part 2 automatically starts, and that continues all the way through Part 6.

In total the series is about an hour long.

While it starts out a bit slow, if you can get through the first 5 minutes, I think most people here will really find that it's worth their time to watch (even if you don't like Part 1, it gets more interesting as it goes along):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9k8L3oDa4&feature=PlayList&p=868DA29421809546&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

I'm not looking to start any stupid debates with this...though I'm definitely interested in your thoughts if you watch the whole thing...

[Vikram C.]

Good post. I am in Sinagpore airport and the bandwidth is not good enough to watch all of it, but I think the first few minutes is enough.

The funny thing is, cops in America are actually no worse than anywhere else in the world and, for the most part, are professional. The differences that I see between cops in America and in most other countries that I have spent time in are:

a) In most countries, cops and other security services will start out with a polite tone and then become more assertive / aggressive if you do not cooperate. In the U.S., they often start with a somewhat rude tone in their very first sentence. This is even true of other government employees such as immigration officers at airports, security people at the airport screening places, etc. This does create a negative impression of the U.S. when someone first lands here although, after being here for a while, you realize that this style of speech seems harmless for the most part and could just be a cultural thing.

b) The bigger puzzle for me is why politicians and the media overwhelmingly portray the police as wonderful people who sacrifice so much for society, etc. This is quite the opposite of how the police are portrayed in the popular media in most other democracies. In fact, it is quite similar to how the security forces are portrayed in dictatorial regimes. While most cops are professional and do provide society a critical service, this difference in the public's respect for them compared to other countries is quite puzzling to me.

I would not mind figuring this out so if someone has an explanation for it. Is this just a uniquely American thing with no specific reason for it or is there some history behind this?

P.S. I do think the slavish respect for cops probably increases the likelihood of the kind of stuff we saw in the video.

[Timothy W.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCCjFbFXn8

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCCjFbFXn8

Don't forget the last tip:

Never carry a gun anywhere, just to make sure you're not accidentally confused with a criminal...

[Timothy W.]

Never been a problem when I've been carrying my proper documentation and I've had cops see my gun and ask for it twice.

[J Scott]

So Tim, what you're saying is that as long as you're not violating the law, cops have no right to violate your civil rights or to break the lae themselves?

Sounds like we completely agree...

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCCjFbFXn8

Btw, for those who watch this before/instead of watching the original video I posted, keep in mind that this has nothing to do with what I posted...

What I posted is about people who *aren't* breaking the law, but are still getting threatened, harassed, intimidated, assaulted and even killed by police officers who are abusing the system and their power.

Sadly, this seems to be becoming more and more prominent (or maybe it's just easier to catch them in this time of everyone-having-cameras), and when the system protects peace officers above their protection of average citizens, there's a big problem...

[Timothy W.]

Originally posted by J Scott:

What I posted is about people who *aren't* breaking the law, but are still getting threatened, harassed, intimidated, assaulted and even killed by police officers who are abusing the system and their power.

No. What you posted is a heavily edited, one sided "documentary" that fails to mention key facts in every story it portrays.

Here are some words from this "documentary" maker's blog on his own video:

"I admit that I know some police myself and have met the occasional respectful, honorable and well meaning officer (though in all honesty I can count them on a single hand)."

"This video is a broad stroke. As with every snapshot of a group, it should be understood that it is not an attack on each individual within that group (except of course for those barbarians that were in the video). Rather it focuses on the organization as a whole."

http://blogs.myspace.com/boilingfrogs101

So the film maker himself admits that he is taking his own preconceived negative viewpoint of police, finding individual cases and using that to attempt to paint a broad stroke negative view of police in general. Ooooh wow. There's an open mind with honorable intentions that should make a real positive impact. :roll:

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

There's an open mind with honorable intentions that should make a real positive impact. :roll:

If anything, it sounds like you're the one without the open mind. You see video that is potentially indicting (at least everyone I know considers it to be), but instead of considering the validity of it and wanting to dig further, you instead write it off as a set of pre-conceived notions by the film-maker.

If you're not interested in asking more questions or considering that perhaps the film-maker has a valid thesis, that's your prerogative. Personally, that attitude sounds a little naive to me...but not everyone has the same thirst for knowledge and not everyone is equally concerned about protecting their rights from a potentially corrupt branch of government.

And before I get branded a "cop hater", let me say that I have nothing law enforcement, in general. I have two police officers in my family, and ten years ago, I almost took a special agent position with the FBI (and if 9/11 hadn't happened, I probably would have). So, I'm certainly not against the idea of law enforcement, nor am I against most individual peace officers.

What I am against is the fact that there are too many examples of police officers overstepping their authority and not having to face the consequences.

I find it funny that you yourself posted a video yesterday of a public official pushing a couple kids with video cameras, and expressed your support for the kids.

Yet you don't seem to be nearly as interested in the facts behind a video of a cop handcuffing a kid, laying him face down and then shooting him in the back.

Why exactly is that?

Is it because the congressman provided an opportunity to espouse a partisan view (he was a Democrat)? Or is it just more concerning to you when a congressman pushes a kid than when a cop shoots a handcuffed kid?

[Timothy W.]

"You see video that is potentially indicting (at least everyone I know considers it to be), but instead of considering the validity of it and wanting to dig further, you instead write it off as a set of pre-conceived notions by the film-maker."

Actually no. It is because I dug further that I write off the preconceived notions of the film-maker. Would you like me to explain?

"I find it funny that you yourself posted a video yesterday of a public official pushing a couple kids with video cameras, and expressed your support for the kids.

Yet you don't seem to be nearly as interested in the facts behind a video of a cop handcuffing a kid, laying him face down and then shooting him in the back.

Why exactly is that?"

Simple.

One has arrest powers. One doesn't.

One is in a profession where his colleagues are regularly shot at and killed by the dregs of society. One isn't.

One spends his nights trying to wrestle down drugged out AIDS infected psychopaths trying to kill him for nothing but doing a blue collar job and wonder if he's going to be sued tomorrow. One doesn't.

One has to wear a bullet proof vest every day to the office. One doesn't

One leaves his wife and kids to go to work, wondering if they're going to be widowed and fatherless this evening. One doesn't.

I'm not saying congressman don't have a tough job but it's no comparison to what a beat cop has to deal with every day of his life.

Tim

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

Actually no. It is because I dug further that I write off the preconceived notions of the film-maker. Would you like me to explain?

Yes, explain how a documentary can exist that isn't based on pre-conceived notions of the film-maker. That's what a documentary is...a film that espouses the viewpoint of the film-maker.

But, now you explain...

One spends his nights trying to wrestle down drugged out AIDS infected psychopaths

AIDS isn't something you can be infected with. :roll:

And clearly junior colleges just aren't what they used to be...

One has to wear a bullet proof vest every day to the office. One doesn't

50% of cops don't wear bullet proof vests while on duty.

One leaves his wife and kids to go to work, wondering if they're going to be widowed and fatherless this evening. One doesn't.

Which one is that? The cops I know (and are related to) don't wonder that, as they realize that if they're any good, the chance of dying on-duty is small.

Maybe the cops you know are more paranoid and insecure.

I'm not saying congressman don't have a tough job but it's no comparison to what a beat cop has to deal with every day of his life.

So, are you saying that for that reason we shouldn't be questioning when a cop shoots a handcuffed guy?

[Rich Schroeder]

Originally posted by J Scott:

I'm not looking to start any stupid debates with this...though I'm definitely interested in your thoughts if you watch the whole thing...

:roll:

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tom Cullen:

Jumpin Jimminy Batman, I thought liberals were suppose to be AGAINST stereotyping!

I thought conservatives were supposed to be big on ensuring that the government doesn't use its power to suppress the Constitutional rights and civil liberties of its people...

Though if you believe Tim, shooting an unarmed, handcuffed guy in the back is not really a violation of any rights or liberties if the person doing the shooting is in a high-risk job and has to wear a bullet-proof vest to work every day. I assume that stuff is in the Advanced Constitution coursework that I haven't yet gotten to...

[Timothy W.]

"Yes, explain how a documentary can exist that isn't based on pre-conceived notions of the film-maker. That's what a documentary is...a film that espouses the viewpoint of the film-maker.

But, now you explain..."

I said I would explain why I write off the preconceived notions of the "documentary" maker. He leaves out critical details. I'll cite the highly dramatic strip search, with female officers present, of the woman who cops "mistook" as an aggressor (in other words, she was aggressive to the responding officers which makes her an aggressor) where the documentary maker showed the husband saying, "She felt penetration" and referring to it as a "rape". The fact is women have been known to carry weapons in their ******s and this is a well documented necessity of a strip search. There was a woman in Austria who concealed a 7" knife in her ****** and it was only discovered by a strip and ******l search. I know that may be squeamish to you but that's why you're not a cop and don't have to deal with this. Cops have to deal with this kind of thing EVERY DAY. Of course the "documentary" maker didn't go into that bit of detail. He just attacked the cops.

"AIDS isn't something you can be infected with. :roll:

And clearly junior colleges just aren't what they used to be..."

Well this is the Jason we can all expect. Claims he doesn't want to make a stupid debate then makes smart mouth insults of anyone who disagrees with him referring to them as stupid or lesser educated and these insult are based on the most pointless things he can find. Contact the Centers for Disease control and tell them they're stupid for referring to any sort of AIDS infection.

"50% of cops don't wear bullet proof vests while on duty."

:roll: What percentage of Congressman wear them?

"Which one is that? The cops I know (and are related to) don't wonder that, as they realize that if they're any good, the chance of dying on-duty is small."

So now you're insulting cops who give their lives in the line of duty. If they die, they're not "any good".

"So, are you saying that for that reason we shouldn't be questioning when a cop shoots a handcuffed guy?"

Again, this goes back to what I said earlier. The "documentary" makes is leaving out details. He left out the details of the Oscar Grant III trial. He left out that two people heard Officer John Mehserle say, "I'm going to taze him" and after the shot that Mehserle looked stunned and ground his hands up to his face and said, "Oh my god!" The "documentary" maker failed to note that the police issue taser is a similar shape to a pistol and that there is a pending trial and it has not been legally been determined yet what Mehserle intended to do.

You didn't bother to research that did you? You just attacked the cops.

[Timothy W.]

I want to say one more thing about what Jason has said about cops in this thread in general.

"And before I get branded a "cop hater"

It's too late for that. This thread is entitled "The Largest Street Gang in America". Street gangs are organized crime. The title of this thread equates the police force all across America to organized crime.

Jason tried to say his original video was about people who "aren't breaking the law" but were getting "threatened, harassed, intimidated, assaulted and even killed". This is a lie. There were people in that video who WERE breaking the law.

He then tries to tell us that the cops who are "any good" are the cops who don't give their life in the line of duty. This is pissing on the grave of every dead cop who has died, protecting and keeping safe every self righteous ungrateful whiner in this thread.

He then tries to tell us that cops who worry about dying in the line of duty and worry about the welfare of their wives and kids at home while they are out facing death are "paranoid and insecure".

I've never seen a more blatant example of out-right cop hating here before and Jason you should take a long look in the mirror and contemplate how many cops have died protecting the society you enjoy.

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

He left out the details of the Oscar Grant III trial. He left out that two people heard Officer John Mehserle say, "I'm going to taze him" and after the shot that Mehserle looked stunned and ground his hands up to his face and said, "Oh my god!" The "documentary" maker failed to note that the police issue taser is a similar shape to a pistol and that there is a pending trial and it has not been legally been determined yet what Mehserle intended to do.

You didn't bother to research that did you?

Actually, I've read about a much of the public information that's out there...

Logically speaking, you either you have to believe that the cop was very poorly trained (if he grabbed a taser instead of a service weapon), he is a murderer (if he purposefully grabbed his gun), or the entire system is corrupt (if tasers can be easily mistaken for service weapons but the police don't implement safety guards to make sure innocent people aren't continued to be killed).

No matter which choice you go with (unless you can think of one I missed), it's either a negative reflection on the cop, his department or the system as a whole.

As for his defense that it was "taser confusion," consider a few facts and expert opinions:

- The judge who ordered bail set it at $3M because he said that Mehserle didn't claim taser confusion when he was first interrogated and changed his story to taser confusion only after talking to his lawyer;

- Many in law enforcement who have seen the video claim there was no reasonable excuse for Mehserle releasing his hold on Grant in order to tase him. He was controlling him with his knee on his neck, and letting go would have been a stupid thing to do. So, even if he was reaching for a taser, it's was the wrong thing to do;

- Experts say that it's pretty tough to confuse a taser with a service weapon these days because tasers weigh about half as much, are a different color, and are holstered differently than service weapons.

Of course, I don't have all the evidence and I'm no expert on police weaponry, so who knows what a jury will decide.

But, I have a feeling Chris Rock would say, "If you don't want to end up on trial for murder, you probably shouldn't shoot an unarmed guy in handcuffs in the back, even if you're a cop."

[J Scott]

Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:

"And before I get branded a "cop hater"

It's too late for that. This thread is entitled "The Largest Street Gang in America". Street gangs are organized crime. The title of this thread equates the police force all across America to organized crime.

Unbelievable...you clearly didn't even watch the video I posted!!!

If you had watched it, you would have known that the title of this thread was just the title of the documentary I linked to.

So basically, you're sitting here vehemently arguing with me about a video I linked to, and YOU NEVER EVEN WATCHED THE VIDEO! In fact, if you didn't realize where my title came from, you clearly never even clicked on the link!!!

You're just want to disagree with everything I post, without even bothering to read or watch it. Do you not read anyone's posts before arguing with them? Or just mine?

This explains why many of your posts make absolutely no sense...it's because you're responding without even really reading what other people are saying. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing...

Sorry Tim, but that's just sad and pathetic...

I've never seen a more blatant example of out-right cop hating here before...

Given the point above that you don't even bother to read the posts before you start arguing, I'd have to say that your opinion no longer matters to me...

Maybe others here will appreciate the fact that you can debate without bothering to listen to the other side, but I certainly can't...

Again, sad and pathetic...