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Updated over 18 years ago, 07/15/2006
Immigration Laws
Looking to dialoguge on this topic so let me begin by saying this;
I do not believe that we should have an open border, however in a country where we enjoy the melting pot status, where Ellis Island brought in the ancestors of some of our finest citizens, where none of us originated here, and also where we brought in millions against their will(slavery), I think it only fitting that we work to make a way that people from south of the border can come here and enjoy the fruits of this nation just like those who came from Europe, Asia and elsewhere. I think they enter "illegally" because of difficulties in the laws and processes to get here. I for one do not feel a threat from them. Let them share in the dream we sell to the world of our economy and way of life. Everyone here except the former slaves came here to escape something, religious persecution, economic struggles etc, and now here we are(not all of us) telling others that they are not good enough to be here, or trying to send them all back. If we look at the records we will find that some of the people that shaped this nation in many ways did not come correctly. So my point is that we should make ways to allow them to come in, not as guest workers but full citizens. Many of us here benefit from their labor and I have benefitted from knowing many of them personally. They, like us are good people trying to survive.
Dont everyone kick me at once!
I need to start by saying that I need to be more versed on this subject (especially when it comes to the immigration laws), but I will completely agree with Guide on the issue of not having an open border policy. I'm not sure what all the guidelines are for trying to enter the country and gain citizenship - but if the Mexican people are not willing to go through the process for fear - and maybe certain knowledge - that they won't be able to get in - I don't really blame them for trying to get into the country by other means.
Much of the backbone of this country has been built and is being built - literally - by immigrants - especially by the Mexican immigrants.
I had the opportunity to live in South America (Uruguay) for two years and witness people trying to get into the US. Everyone I knew left for work purposes - most leaving behind their families - sending back to them some of their paychecks in the mail so the wife and kids would be able to survive.
I think a lot of those who are actively trying to keep out the illegal immigrants or those against letting in immigrants haven't experienced the living conditions of those trying to get into the county. Those who come in aren't just coming to try to take away our jobs or livelihood - they're coming here to try to have livelihoods of their own.
So while I am avidly against an open border policy - I do think we should look at the immigration laws we have, realizing the great importance immigrants play in all of our lives.
I'm intrigued to hear other opinions.
If a Mexican worker wants to come to the US and do some of the work that I don't even want to touch... then I have no problem with that.
I think most of the illegal immigrants are working at places that are "less picky" about who they hire because you have to submit social security card, brith certificate, etc. for your W-9 at most places. However, an open border policy is going to change that dynamic because the number of opportunities for Mexican workers in the US will increase. What do Texans think about that? The ripple effects of this policy will be less pronounced for the rest of the US.
Also, what would this mean for real estate prices in Texas? I would suspect that low income areas (especially in southern Texas) are going to be the most affected by an open border policy.
Think over this too guys. The companies that hire these immigrants are paying them below minimum wage in most cases and if they were citizens, they would have to be paid minimum wage by law. So if you have 50 people that you can hire and pay them $2-$3 less per hour, you would save tons of money in labor per year. So in my mind, the companies that benefit the most from this labor, benefit the most from policies that keep it "illegal" and I'm sure they have lobbyists to help them along the way. Can anyone say"Jack Abramoff?" . People like him, help people like them(corporate hounds) stay ahead of people like us. I am sure that Texas gets alot, but I am near Chicago and there are a great many here also and for the record, property values in hispanic neighborhoods is way, way up.
Guide here makes a valid point about the minimum wage thing - and that's probably one of the biggest problems we would run into in making it easier to become a legal citizen. The problem would be three-fold:
1 - More immigrants would come to the US
2 - Companies would have to start paying minimun wage
3 - Because of that, they would probably hire less workers - more people with less job opening = increasing unemployment.
Then, because they are all now US citizens who want to work but can't find it, they become eligible for unemployment compensation - which in turn all of us would have to pay through increasing taxes.
So ti is a very delicate line here that Congress and the President have to walk when it comes to immigration.
Views from Southern Cali, I opposed to an open boarder policy because basically it is already pretty much so open due to the lack of border patrols here in california, and if you pass this law it just basically justify what they have been doing is right. The mexicans come across the border illegally now because they know they can without getting caught. There is a MAP that they can get from the Mexican government on how to get to the US safely.
Alot of people say oh they are doing alot of the work that you or I wouldnt do, well that is so not true. Most of them are just hanging around Home Depot and other hardware stores looking for day laboror jobs. So it is the Contractors that are exploiting them because it is a cash job. Aside from that maybe some are dish washers and what not. The ones that you do see such as gardeners and such, the boss is probably legal and it is the boss that is hiring the illegal ones and exploiting them. I dont really see a real corporation would hire any illegals because its too much of a risk for them to do so.
Now if an open border policy is to occur, there will be more illegals hanging around the parking lots of all major home improvement type stores and I see a problem with crime to follow when not enough of these jobs are available. Its a matter of supply and demand. There would also be a major increase in DUI accidents because it is a known fact that mexican loves their tequilla and when there is nothing better to do, they start drinking alot. I do have friends that are mexican, so I know it is part of their culture and I am not being a jerk about it either.
The ones that are in the US legally I have no problem with because they pay taxes just like all of us. And they show their true intentions for this great country of ours by legally getting their papers, legally paying their taxes and legally having families here in the US and contributing to our economy and becoming an American. Alot of the illegals only come to the US to work and send all their money back home to mexico or they would go to mexico after a few months to spend it.
Why should the mexicans get special treatment if others in the world arent, even canadians dont get amesty if they decides to stay for over 5 years in the US because my Wife is a canadian and we have to go thru the whole legal process to get her her visa in the US. Going thru this process is a pain but it does support our government because the fees and forms to just get her here cost me almost 2000 dollar which I was happy to pay because I know she is already doing her part that makes this country great. Granting everyone amesty or having an open border isnt the answer.
Do you guys think these protests will help immigrants or hurt them? I've gotten mixed opinions. On the one hand, I've heard people say that they will help because it will make everyone around the country realize how much work immigrants really do. On the other hand, some say it will hurt because a lot of people across the nation don't realize how many immigrants - legal or illegal - are in the country. Now that that are protesting and in the spotlight - the illegal immigrants are brought to the forefront and a lot of people will want them out of the country because they are here illegally.
What do you guys think?
One way or the other, the protests will help because they are here no matter how you view it, the same way most of us got here, through immigrating whether legal or "illegal" (personally I dont think they are illegal at all) and they are expressing a key tenet of American Freedom which is protest. One things I will say about many Mexicans that I have known is that sometimes they are better at being Americans than Americans themselves. They can express the goodness the hard work and the lack of complacency that made this country great and their being here and people talking about jobs that Americans wont do, this is exposing a modern weakness in this country. Imagine 30yrs ago or more talking about what job an American wouldnt do, that type of talk was unheard of long ago except when the slaves did the work that the master didnt want to do. Americas history is biting her in the bottom right now and the hypocracy of our ideals get exposed in situations like these.
Funny that you should mention that - one of my friends and I were talking about this yesterday when he said the same thing almost verbatim. But it's so true. People say the mexican immigrants are taking away jobs from americans...but the truth be known, one of the reasons businesses can hire them for the jobs they do is because a lot of Americans are too arrogant to take a job they think is below them or their status...some (Americans) are more content to stay at home and receive unemployment and complain about not having a job than going out and getting a job. If someone disagrees - just go down to the local Department of Workforce Services (DWS)and hang around there for a little while - you'll see it's true. I have relatives that work DWS and some of the stories they have about a lot of white americans looking for jobs is amazing.
If a worker earns $500 per week and goes for unemployment then they can get $250 for doing nothing. If they go out and get a minimum wage job (regardless of what it is) then they might bring home $250 in a week. Why work for the money when you can get it for free? Not only that, but taking a job for less than you earned before makes some people feel like they are "worth" less.
I'm not sure what to think about Bush's unemployment reform. You can now get unemployment for an extra year if you are pursuing a degree.
Just my opinion,
Many of us have all benefited from illegal immigration in some form or another, fueling the issue. In my industry I have originated numerous mortgages for individuals with no SSN#...30% down, SOLD! It's an issue about CASH.
We have existing laws and statutes in place to allow legal entry into the U.S. Those that choose to ignore those laws are considered law breakers. I view America as My House. I wouldn't dream of living anywhere else. If someone wants to come to my house, first they should be invited. Next they should abide by the house rules. Don't come over and plop down in my chair, grab the channel changer and tell my wife to run and get you a cold one out the fridge.
America is a very young country in the whole scheme of things. At the rate we are going, we're being assimulated like the Borg.
With national security in the shape it's in, I think it's imperative that we close our borders and get a handle on those that are in the country illegally.
Just my opinion
We are already seeing a problem in Flroida. Not enough people that want a job picking oranges! Sad to say but we have a shortage of hard working Americans in the US.
I think if they are paid fairly and taxed as we are then they should be allowed to come over to work "LEGALLY". They need to go through a process just like everyone else does.
I do think that the ones caught in criminal acts need to be sent back for prosecution in Mexico. I know that is funy, but Mexican Gang members should be put on a most wanted list and sent straight back over the border.
I lived in Del Rio and El Paso for a long time and could barely find a job because everyone is bilingual. With 15% unemployment, Mexicans migrated seasonally at that time and part of the package from American companies like canneries was unemployement being paid when they returned home.
I'm sure in Florida good, qualified workers are displaced though experienced because they aren't bilingual and their jobs suddenly require that language skill. Think about your life it suddently you couldn't get a job in your state or work without being fluent in another language. Sounds great, but it isn't.
Mexicans are hard working and come here because they are poor and have families to support. Religion and cultural attitudes are great influences in their migration to the U.S. It is presumptuous of us to assume we understand their culture and what motivates them to migrate to the U.S.
I am opposed to open borders. Becoming an American citizen should be difficult for everyone..not easy. That would dilute it's value.
I understand you points and I have a little of the problem in my industry. I work full time in the technical field of which India is an upcoming star. Good for them, but they are taking alot of the jobs we have in the US. But, I think that means myself and my co-workers need to keep our skills up to date so our jobs don't get taken. The US has a big problem right now of commanding large salaries for little and subpar work.
There's a book titled "Job Shift" that talks about the overall shift from the old job expectation of a lifetime work relationship to workers being contracted for individual skills. It's a little scarey but excellent reading on this subject.
Look at how fast corporate america is escaping pensions for example (suddently "they can't afford them) while congress sits back and helps that along. In my field, company loyalty to employees seemed to die 20 years ago.
Thanks, I will have to look up the book. Funny you mention pensions. The funny thing is, the employees suffer but the CEOs and executives bonus and pay increases. Funny how that works. Some people argue that pensions keep companies in the US from competing with international companies, but I think executive compensation is more of a problem, not the money the company should pay to loyal employees that work their entire life somewhere.
Not sure how a struggling or almost bankrupt company can afford to pay their CEO $10 million dollars. Doesn't make much sense. I am snesitive to this topic because it makes me sick to hear how pay increases are limited every year, but when the annual reports for the company come out the CEO and other executives always seem to have million dollar increases. That is what is keeping us from competing over seas.
Ok...so Mexicans have it rough. Their country is run by crooks and there are no jobs to be found. :violin: :violin:
Big deal!! I cannot feel sorry for the people of Mexico when we have people from all parts of the world coming here to escape things like genocide, torture, etc. and they chose to come here LEGALLY. The only reason that this invasion from Mexico is be allowed is because the politcians in Washington see a future voting block. And don't hand me this mess about Mexicans coming here and doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do. I see plenty of Americans everyday who are hard working, willing to do just about any job you put in front of them, if it means that they can take care of their famlies. From my own personal experience, I worked in construction for a few years after college and the vast majority of people I worked with were Mexicans (many I'm sure were here illegally). Of all the job sites I worked during those years, I found (with the rare exception) three things to be universally true about these Mexican workers.
1) They were always the last to get to work and the first to leave
2) Not a one of them could understand a word of English (nor did they seem to want to)
3) Their work was almost always done half a** and it was left to Americans (like myself) to go behind them and correct their work.
What do Mexicans provide this country? A pool of cheap labor for employers who want to pad their profits and a huge welfare liability. They want to immigrate to this country and become citizens of this country? Fine, I say more power to them. But not while they are here illegally. Kick them out and put them at the back of the line where they belong. Do not reward them for breaking the law or give them a pass simply because they are our neighbor.