Annual urge to buy a Florida Condo ...

Annual urge to buy a Florida Condo ...

Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes

Hi All,

About once a year or so, my wife and I start fantasizing about buying a condo near the ocean in Florida. She spent most of her adult life in Hudson (near Tampa), and my Dad used to own Captain Tony’s, and owned a 6-unit in Key West, so Florida is “in our blood.” We are 3 years from being able to travel more flexibly (daughter graduates), and our main source of income will be our 48 unit apartment rental business (unless we sell it, in which case our pile of cash will be!)

We like the ocean but understand that the insurance could be “crippling”, so we’re willing to be inland a few blocks. We anticipate that we’d be MUCH better off financially just renting via VRBO. So this is not a financial decision as much as an emotional one. For next 3 years, we’ll only be able to go down on school vacations (most expensive times to fly). Our primary reasons would be:

  • Freedom of leaving at a moment’s notice and heading down & freedom to stay an extra day or three without worrying about the next renter being right behind us.
  • Good “jumping off” place when we start traveling more. (i.e. it’s much cheaper to go on a cruise, fly to Ecuador, etc. from Florida than Maine. Maine is a horrible place to travel anywhere from (but a wonderful place to live)
  • Having a place that has a lot of our clothes, supplies, etc. and forging relationships with the neighbors, etc.

I've often wondered if we could get a better deal / bang for the buck with a SFH. Yes, we'd need to handle hiring someone to look after it most of the year, but???

That all being said, I’d love to hear any thoughts y’all have, especially the “where?” Here is what’s important to us:

  • Prefer ON the ocean (as in hearing the surf if we open our window) but will accept up to 10 minute drive from water’s edge. We’d live on canal, but would still want to be 10 minutes or less from SANDY beach.
  • So sort of implied with #1, we want a sandy beach, not OVERLY crowded.
  • Would LIKE to keep price to $250k or less but flexible as long as we’re convinced it’s a “no brainer” for eventual appreciation and ease of selling.
  • Town where its somewhat laid back but NOT deserted. We’d like to be able to get to a few nice restaurants and shopping within, say 10-15 minute drive
  • 2BR / 2BA minimum
  • Must have pool & hot tub
  • Reasonable condo fees
  • Like to be able to rent it out VRBO style … could it be that if a HO assoc allows that, it might not be a great place to live?
  • House vs. Condo? Compelling reasons to choose house over condo?
  • Should be in an area that has a high chance of holding value, and being easy to sell in the future if we should want to.
  • If we’re doing this on “want” vs. “need” I want to mitigate the financial damage by buying as intelligently as possible. So if there are any situations where we can get a discount for accepting “acceptable” challenges (can’t think of what those might be) we will. Maybe like a condo on a golf course, but the one farthest away from the course??

Perhaps a list of things we like / dislike would help too.

LOVE: healthy food, long walks, sunshine, laying by a quiet poolside reading. I would like to fish and snorkel once in a while, but one of my favorite things is long walks around 5 in the morning, especially on the beach. Our daughter is an avid English "hunter" style rider (horse shows), so it might be neat if horse ranch was nearby. 

DO NOT LOVE: Anything to do with golf, “botanical” gardens, fast food, poorly behaved children. (i.e. loud) We’d like to be far enough south that there is little chance of “enduring” a 55 degree week during the winter.

We’ve got friends with Condo in Venice and they speak highly of it. Also heard good things about Sarasota area … 

Thank you. I hope the way I presented all this is clear enough ... I sometimes use 5 words where one will do...

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Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 8 votes
10y
Check out Ormond Beach area which is just north of Daytona. My friend who is also a realtor bought a condo in Ormond, 2 bed 2 bath, as a vacation rental and pulls in between $2600 for low season months and upwards as $3400 per month for peak season. Make sure you can do daily rentals and rack up the cash.
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  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 8 votes
    10y
    Check out Ormond Beach area which is just north of Daytona. My friend who is also a realtor bought a condo in Ormond, 2 bed 2 bath, as a vacation rental and pulls in between $2600 for low season months and upwards as $3400 per month for peak season. Make sure you can do daily rentals and rack up the cash.
  • Real Estate Agent · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Read a pretty interesting story on the Top 10 beach front towns in America to buy in. They mentioned Palm Beach. It may be worth a look. All the best!
  • Real Estate Agent · Vienna, VA · Member since 2016 · 289 posts · 253 votes
    10y

    Hi Kenneth,

    I can see 3 areas in FL where you may be able to get what you are looking for:

    1. Naples/Fort Myers: South of where you have friends (Sarasota/Venice), so you won't be far from them. You should be able to find a property similar to what you are looking for very close to the beach, if not on the beach. It is south enough, especially Naples, that the risk of enduring a 55 degree week during winter is not has high as in some other parts of FL (although even here in Miami we have to go through low 50s some days of the year!).

    2. Delray/Boca Raton: Similar to Naples/Fort Myers, but in the east coast of Florida. It should be in a similar price point than option 1 for a similar property, maybe a touch more expensive, but it will depend on your ability to find a good deal). It is close to a lot of places for horse riding (Wellington has the best places around here), quite a bit of great food options, and it is 20-30 min from a major airport (Fort Lauderdale).

    3. The Keys: Definitively, the possibility to endure a 55 degree week here is less than in the other two options, also, no matter where you find a place, it will be close to the beach. However, each Key is different and you will have to look quite well food options, property values, and all other parameters, based on the Key you may want to purchase on.

    Hope it helps!

    David

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    ...interesting I hadn't thought of the Keys. I only think of Key West which I LOVE but is a little too remote and expensive. (My father owned a 6 unit there and passed away in 2006 ... we sold it and that's how we managed to purchase 13 buildings totaling 48 units here in Maine! Yup .. that's the exchange rate!) - I have seen pictures of the other keys and am thinking they might be very laid back ... 

  • Rental Property Investor · Oldsmar, FL · Member since 2014 · 238 posts · 61 votes
    10y

    I live in Tampa and I have to admit it does drop a touch below 55 sometimes.  I think this last winter it got around 45.  I came from Kentucky so any temperature above freezing is great in my book.  The cold spell lasted about 4 weeks I think.  

    Anyway getting back to the condo vs. house. The condo is for sure the easy way with maintenance, and streamline a renting roster. As you know the Tampa Bay area has some very nice beaches. They are a hot tourist area. For the $250K price point you can find a nice condo but you also said you wanted to minimize HOA/ condo fees. Often those can be high and can destroy profits if not careful.

    I am curious what do you consider high HOA/condo fees? I know you mentioned a home to by and rent but then once you work in remote cleaning crew, property management, repair expence, along with ALL utilities. Running a SFH (single family home) as a weekly rental becomes more difficult. You could pay a company to do all those things but once all the cost and expenses are paid. I would guess it would be close to your HOA/ condo fees.

    Just something to think about. Once again I am curious about what your thoughts of HOA cost is to high? Trust me I feel the same way about paying a HOA for full ownership of a investment.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    I'm just starting my research, @Brian Johnson so I'm not 100% clear yet on what I consider high HOA fees. I meant that sort of in a relevent way. I'm hearing $300-$600 are typical. I think another way to say it is, "If 5 blocks from the ocean are $400 per month and ocean front is $2,000 per month, then OF is out. If the difference is less drastic, then I'd like to stretch a little and be ocean front."

    Hitting 55 degrees a few days is really not a problem. As long as the area we're in is warm. I think we'd like to be at least as far south as Tampa. I would like to investigate the keys a bit and see what sort of environments are available. I'm only familiar with KW, not the rest of the Keys. 

    If we could find something affordable in Naples area of W Palm beach, I like what I've seen so far there. I'll be doing some diligent soul searching and researching this weekend and will update my post. 

    Thanks again everyone. 

  • Naples, FL · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    Hi Kenneth,

    I can set you up with some current Naples area listings (from our local MLS) that are along the lines of what you describe. I can also have new listings automatically come to you via email if you're interested in that. Here's one Naples property that's similar to what you're talking about:

    http://matrix.swflamls.com/Matrix/Public/Portal.as...

    If you go up a bit, say $300-325K, then you have a few more choices. Summer is a good time to buy - at least in Naples - because it's our slow season and there are quality houses that will end up sitting on the market until things pick up again in the fall. Sellers may be more flexible this time of year.

    Regarding the HOA fees, yes $300-600 are pretty typical, but rather than proximity to the beach, they're primarily driven by amenities and the other things the HOA pays for (insurance, community pool, maintenance, etc.). The more the HOA does or provides, the more you pay. One possible exception is when you have a small association. They may not provide much, but the costs can be high because they are split among so few owners.

    I really love Naples. It's laid back but has most of what larger metros have due to the high number of affluent residents. One of the safest cities in Florida, as well. You kind of get the best of both worlds.

  • Real Estate Agent · Vienna, VA · Member since 2016 · 289 posts · 253 votes
    10y

    Kenneth, Key Largo and Islamorada are a couple of Keys I stayed at for a company retreats. They are not too far from Miami (largest airport to fly in and out), you have some god food options, and definitively a great place for fishing and snorkeling. Different vibe than the Key West atmosphere you may remember.

    The main difference between buying in the Keys vs. other cities in South Florida (Naples, West Palm Beach, Tampa, etc.) will be the lifestyle of the place. The Keys will be more like a vacation/caribbean/beach option (salt life), while in the other places, although you will be still be in near the beach, they will feel more like city/town and less like a Caribbean retreat.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    @John Hannah - please do subscribe me. I'd greatly appreciate that. If you are able, add Islamorada and Key Largo too ...?

  • Naples, FL · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Kenneth LaVoie - sure, just sent you a message.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    I've realized that one quality is of heavy importance: We want something that, if we decide it no longer suits us, is easy to sell for very close to what we paid for it. Now I know that some of that is "our doing" (i.e. if we over pay, etc.) but are there any qualities of Florida RE that you can hone in on that make selling later a breeze? For example, I've heard that gutting it up and just paying extra for ocean front vs. a few blocks inland you can pretty much assure a good future sale (assuming you don't over pay)

  • Real Estate Agent · Vienna, VA · Member since 2016 · 289 posts · 253 votes
    10y

    @Kenneth LaVoie, if you want to get top dollar in case you decide to rent/sell it later. Once you narrow down what area do you want to purchase in, I would look for:

    1. Ocean view

    2. Steps from the beach 

    3. Pool at the building (this probably means more HOA fees though)

    At the same time, these properties will be more expensive now for purchase. It will be a matter of looking for options, being patient for the right opportunity, and making sure that you are not overpaying, as you mentioned. 

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2016 · 36 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    Does anybody have any experience turning a positive cash flow on a beach front vacation rental?  It seems to me that the prices are just too high to use it as an investment.  I would love to see the numbers on one that works.

  • Portland, OR · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    I can point you toward markets where list prices and high rental revenue will point to cash flow opportunities, but it will be local realtor relationships who can help make the deals happen. I work with a team who has a significant amount of data and can develop vacation rental projections for just about any home. Connect with me offline if you want to discuss the challenge of finding deals that will produce cash flow as vacation rentals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    @David Fernandez - thank you. Great points. And I would not even spend a WEEKEND in Florida without an easy to get to pool, so that's an easy one. And we're planning on spending more for ocean front (ocean view at very least), so those two points are covered. And the whole oceanfront is what I THOUGHT would probably lean us toward being able to sell at better price later. 

    @Gerard Lester

    @Gerard Lester - I will connect with you and give you a pm regarding your post. Thank you!

    @Wes Singleton

    @Wes Singleton - I'm guessing the same .. not that it can't be done, but we're prepared to only use renting as a way to "offset some of our expense" vs. actually having positive cash flow. 

  • Investor · Evans, GA · Member since 2015 · 190 posts · 103 votes
    10y

    @David Fernandez Just curious...are condo prices continuing to soften in South FL according to reports I've seen? I wonder if better deals might be available down the road a bit, assuming we hit an inevitable "soft patch" in the economy.

  • Real Estate Agent · Vienna, VA · Member since 2016 · 289 posts · 253 votes
    10y

    @Jade S. market is definitively cooling off down here. Prices rose to levels above pre-crash in a matter of 2-3 years and in the past 6-9 months prices have been decreasing already in some areas(~10%), both for condos and SFH.

    It will be interesting to see what the correction is for condos. There's been A LOT of construction in the past 3-4 years with thousands of units being delivered between the end of this year and the following year. Here in South Florida, Miami specifically, most of these new construction condos are bought by foreign investors, mostly from Latin America; the dollar has strengthen a lot in the past year, thus decreasing the purchase power or the interest to invest in dollars for these investors and creating a market with lots of new units with no buyer or with buyers that gave a deposit and now have to close, but may not be willing to do so due to unfavorable exchange rates.

    Obviously, I can't predict 100% where the market is heading, but if I had to guess, although after September our high season starts and always helps with RE sales, I think we should not expect any price increase soon, more the opposite.

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    @David Fernandez is right, estimated 11,000 new condo units will be completed within the next 24 months.  It will be more of a market correction specifically on Condos, as opposed to a crash.  Major projects like Brickell City Center and Miami WorldCenter may help keep the condo market generally stabilized though bringing urban growth. 

  • Investor · Evans, GA · Member since 2015 · 190 posts · 103 votes
    10y

    Thanks, @David Fernandez. I agree it's going to be hard to predict exactly what will occur. But as you said...if thousands of new units are pending with potentially fewer buyers, it sounds like the set up for further pullbacks may come into play. I've been seriously contemplating dipping my toe into the south FL market for a while, but am not solely locked into condos. Good SFH deals would certainly be of interest as well if they are also seeing similar downward trends. Sounds like 2017 may be an important year to watch economically.

  • Real Estate Agent · Wilmington, DE · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 5 votes
    10y
    @ Gerard Lester Hi Gerard. My wife and I have kicked around for years the possibility of investing in Fl. for both as a vacation rental and a place for us to go. Just can't seem to get the numbers to work. I would very much appreciate your insight. Thanks, John
  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2016 · 36 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    @john Troise I was thinking the same thing.  If I could even get close to breaking even I think it would be worth it to have a vacation property, but I'd like to hear from others who have tried it first and what areas they are seeing the best rent vs purchase price.

  • Bradenton, FL · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 0 votes
    10y

    St petersburg Fl is the absolute best place to buy a property for short term rental return, the city welcomes over millions of vacations a year, which in fact is a 6-7 month period and there is a lack of available property so what this means is your property will be in high demand. Prices are relatively inexpensive $100k - $150k near the Best beaches in America! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    @Gail 

    @Gail Villanueva, I was not able to reach you at that email. I'll try PM. 

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Hi Kenneth,

    I'm going to suggest something crazy.  Don't buy.  Not yet.  You described it as an urge.  That's probably exactly what it is.  :-)  I live here and every time my wife and I do a long weekend in Anna Maria Island or Siesta Key, we get the same urge.  Get a vacation rental for a few weekends here and there and see which area of Florida you connect with.  I'm in a subdivision between Weschase and Odessa, 15/20 minutes to the beach but in an equestrian area, close to my favorite coffee shops and not far from the more wild areas of Florida where I hunt/fish.  The beach is great, but this is perfect for me and at 60 feet above sea level I never have to worry about a storm surge.  Florida really is a state of just about every kind of environment you can choose from except for mountain, tundra or desert, so really give yourself time to choose the right place to "live".  And when you live here, just know you can vacation here 2 hours away in a completely different environment.  It's an amazing state that way.

  • Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes
    10y

    I have discovered Cocoa Beach. (figuratively speaking) Is anyone familiar with it? I know the Atlantic is colder, bigger waves, etc. sand a little browner, but it sounds like an "old fashioned beach town" with a pier, and you can walk for miles on the beach which is in our top 5 "most important" qualities. Other than that, we have it down to Venice / Englewood or Cape Coral. We haven't completely eliminated Naples / Marco Island. 

    With Cape Coral, it looks like Pine Island and another island are right off the coast, maybe blocking the view? A map makes it hard to tell. I'll be having a talk with a Maine based associate who has purchased a few condos down there the past 4-5 years. 

    Thanks again all for any additional input.  @Tim Weineke, I didn't see your post until after I'd written this. Thank you. your reflections are a big help. We may very well end up waiting and just vacationing nowhere but FLA in different spots for the next few years. We generall y take an early summer vacay right here in Maine to Old Orchard Beach but maybe we'll zip down to one of our "locations" in FLA instead. Thanks again. 

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