Landlord Retaliation in Michigan?

Landlord Retaliation in Michigan?

Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes

Hello there, 

I'm in Michigan with a Section 8/Hud Vash tenant who has 3 more months on an initial lease.  

Inherited a house from my mother 11 years ago and jumped in after researching landlord/tenant laws in Mich, but admit I make some stupid  mistakes and learning from them as I go. About 8 months in,  she complained about power issues in the house: "low power in some rooms, too much power in others, flickering lights, etc. I also work 9-5 so I sent a contractor in (without me present (I know, mistake, but he sent me pics) who said there was 6 wet/corroded breakers due to water entering the box. Repairs were invoiced/ completed, then 4 days later I received a notice from sec 8 inspector that said that there were power surges all over the house: when she turns on basement stairwell lights, the stove power goes out and when turning on hallway light, the fan goes out in the bedroom, with 30 days to repair. Went back over there with contractor and none of those issued were happening. Inspector returns in 30 days and i passed, but I also wasnt allowed to present on this one.. She calls again a few days later saying power is still "wacky",  low in the kitchen and she can only plug and use appliances one at a time. Told her to call the electric company as the electrician did mention that it could be a "floating neutral" whatever that means, otherwise I told her shes free to break the lease.  Admit I made mistake again not being present when energy company showed up but they never give you exact time, and I assume there was no issues on their end because the tenant said nothing. Section 8 case manager emails me a mutual lease termination form. I signed, sent it back along with the required notice to quit termination of lease. 3rd mistake: not having her sign it first. She never signed and then called the city inspector because I received call from a city inspector saying that the property is not registered as a rental and also that the tenant showed him a video of appliances shutting off and the panel is only 60 amps with no main breaker. Previous tenants of 6 years never complained about any power issues and growing up in the house and mother owned it 30 Year's  never did either.

So i know made plenty mistakes here, but her lease will also be terminating in 3 months.  My concern is  that there is a MI law that states that if an eviction or non renewal of lease is initiated within 90 days of tenant contacting an inspector it will be presumed that the eviction/non renewal is an act of retaliation, but after 90 days the tenant will have the burden of proof. Would you non renew the lease with section at the risk of tenant claiming retaliation?  Or go mtm and try to terminate later. I was going to use the good cause reason that I would be removing the property from the market for renovations/upgrades, which is what I also told city inspector for why I haven't and won't be registering the property with the city.  The tenant is a veteran (Hud Vash) program and has mental health issues also. Thanks for reading if you read this far and appreciate any responses. 

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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
4y

I work in the electrical industry for a major circuit breaker / panel board manufacture. First thing I will say is take your tenants complaints seriously. You seem to think because there was never a problem for the last 36 years that it will be fine for the next 36 years. That is completely illogical. Every building that ever collapsed was standing the previous day... It sounds like these power problems are intermittent, so assuming an electrician could trouble shoot, assumes the problems was occurring when they were there. I believe your tenant is telling the truth and this could be a fire hazard. Here are my thoughts and feel free to share with an electrician:

- I have had power surges and missing power issues traced back to a missing phase on the incoming line. Since typical power to homes had two hots and a neutral, missing one hot can result in power to only a portion of the home. The half of the house without power can still get partial voltage, since current can find alternate paths. In my rental house, it resulted in some light bulbs being lit up dimly, even thought the phase was gone! Call the utility and asked them what they found.

- I have had power issues related to bad receptacles, where the connections were intermittent. Receptacles can generally last 30-40 years before they may need replacing. Based on the appearance of the panel, the receptacles and switches are probably all very old. Some bad receptacles could be creating strange problems. 

- If you had a short from neutral to line, that would result in 240 volts at half the receptacles in the house and undervoltage at the other receptacles. This lines up with the description, but the short could literally be coming from anywhere and could be hard to trace. Circuit breakers should trip when the line voltage is shorted direct shorted, but if the short has high resistance, breakers will not trip but current will flow. This is a fire hazard. 

- The panel board needs to be updated. The 60 amp service and lack of main panel breaker is a safety hazard. A new panel board should be have a main breaker and I would install arc fault and ground fault breakers (depending on circuit). These breakers will help detect wiring issues that are likely the cause. 

- There are cloth jacketed wires in the panel board, which I can see damage to the jacket of the wire. That is not good and it speaks to the general condition of the wiring. Ideally you should rewire the entire property. This is a fire hazard and the power problems are probably a warning sign of a more serious issue. A high resistance short that doesn't trip circuit breakers is usually generating massive heat at the short point. This is the root of most electrical fires.

- Even if you don't replace the panel board. There are C&H/Eaton retrofit circuit breakers that have Arc Fault protection. These could be installed on the panelboard and probably reused in a new panel board if you replaced later.

- You mentioned water in the panel board and wet/corroded breakers. This is really bad and I believe it is true based on the rust damage in the photo. Water and electricity do not mix. Make sure the water issue is addressed. It was a good decision for your electrician to replace the breakers, but it is possible there is other damage he didn't see/address.

- I am unsure if this panel board has proper grounding and neutral. The ground bus bar has no large copper wire indicating it is grounded to a water line. It could be behind the panel board or the panel board itself may be acting as the ground. The panel board is steel, so that is not ideal. In a new installation there would be a large copper wire on the ground bus bar either tied to copper water lines or a ground rod that goes into the ground. Neutral is in the upper left hand corner but hard to see what it is tied too. The fact that your electrician mentioned neutral leads me to believe they saw a concern. Floating neutral or floating ground is an electrocution hazard and could cause other power issues.

My biggest concern is that these power problems are the signs of a serious safety and fire hazard. The electrical problems have been well documented, so you now have major liability concerns. Electrocution or fire is a very real concern. Talk to Section 8 about habitability concerns. The tenant should really move out so you can rewire and replace the panel board. You may even want to upgrade incoming service from the transformer. It would not be considered retaliation if you were asking the tenant to leave due to safety concerns. Documenting that may help with liability too. I would speak with an attorney before doing anything else.

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  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    sounds like the electrician is an idiot. was he licensed? he's supposed to put at LEAST 100amp panel and fix all the issues. seems like he did the bare minimum to get paid. we manage and update a T O N of houses west of telegraph and we never have "floating neutral" issues.

    get a new electrician and make the tenant happy. 

    you "not being present" has nothing to do with the issues around the house. you do not need to be present in order to make sure it's done right.

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    Thanks. Hard to find a trust worthy electrician. He was a licensed journeyman not master and was at the house about 2 hours and at first said it was her fridge causing the issue then later said it wasn't and  needed to go back and "troubleshoot" some more. And this was after the tenant gave him her number and I saw them on the porch laughing and flirting. May have been paranoid,  but became suspicious and though they were going to try to "hustle me" together.  I don't really trust her either as she had shown some hostility towards me for whatever reason. But everytime she has called with a problem I've gone right over or sent someone to fix it. Also forgot to mention that she did disassemble the panel box and send me a text of the wires,  saying that it was hazard which was not necessary. I do plan on upgrading the amps even though its not required cause the house is 1940s and was grandfathered. But I do want her out to upgrade and start over again because I do sense some resentment and the communication has not been good, just don't want to be charged with retaliation when I don't renew or have to evict..

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @George P.:

    sounds like the electrician is an idiot. was he licensed? he's supposed to put at LEAST 100amp panel and fix all the issues. seems like he did the bare minimum to get paid. we manage and update a T O N of houses west of telegraph and we never have "floating neutral" issues.

    get a new electrician and make the tenant happy. 

    you "not being present" has nothing to do with the issues around the house. you do not need to be present in order to make sure it's done right.

     Yea I really think you've just hired the wrong electrician here. Get the right one in there to upgrade the service to the home and stop going to the house with your contractors when they do service calls. That's not something you need to be doing. Just get yourself the right people. If I had to guess you're probably trying to hire the cheapest contractors. Stop doing that. It doesn't pay off in the end. Heck, your time having to go with these people and babysit them why they trouble shoot problems in the home is worth more than the difference between a top guy and a Chuck with a Truck off Craigslist any day.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    What @James Wisesaid.

    Plus, 60 amps, that might be old 110V service and those old fabric covered wires.

    The flickering and surging might be the OLDEN DAYS fabric wires arcing inside the walls (a fire on it's way to starting).

    Even if the outlets have 3 prong holes and you see some ROMEX, it doesn't mean they redid the whole system with ROMEX, there will be hidden from view junction boxes that might still have old wire in them, or old plastered over live wires.

    Fix it quick--flickering and surging is not a good thing--it's very dangerous.

    You may be forced by law to bring it up to current code, GFCI Breakers, etc... ($$$$)

    And make sure the smoke detectors are up (not expired) and working properly.

    I shudder to think how you will feel if someone burns to death in there.

    >>>>What @James Wise said<<<< Get a GOOD Licenced Electrician in there ASAP...

    And some of those old houses have no fire stops inside the walls, meaning they go up in flames very, very quickly.

    Make sure the electrician "Pulls the needed Permits" and is licenced and has good references.

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    What @James Wisesaid.

    Plus, 60 amps, that might be old 110V service and those old fabric covered wires.

    The flickering and surging might be the OLDEN DAYS fabric wires arcing inside the walls (a fire on it's way to starting).

    Even if the outlets have 3 prong holes and you see some ROMEX, it doesn't mean they redid the whole system with ROMEX, there will be hidden from view junction boxes that might still have old wire in them, or old plastered over live wires.

    Fix it quick--flickering and surging is not a good thing--it's very dangerous.

    You may be forced by law to bring it up to current code, GFCI Breakers, etc... ($$$$)

    And make sure the smoke detectors are up (not expired) and working properly.

    I shudder to think how you will feel if someone burns to death in there.

    >>>>What @James Wise said<<<< Get a GOOD Licenced Electrician in there ASAP...

    And some of those old houses have no fire stops inside the walls, meaning they go up in flames very, very quickly.

    Make sure the electrician "Pulls the needed Permits" and is licenced and has good references.

    Yikes! Thanks for all tips I'm on it,  and working on finding a good licensed electrician.  Here's the panel at the house for any experts on here.  Like I said I've never had any power complaints with previous tenants with the 60 amps. I'll upgrade but still want her out of there. 

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    I'm surprised your electrician left it wide open like that.

    Make sure they pull the required permits for the job.

  • Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Cristal A.:
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    What @James Wisesaid.

    Plus, 60 amps, that might be old 110V service and those old fabric covered wires.

    The flickering and surging might be the OLDEN DAYS fabric wires arcing inside the walls (a fire on it's way to starting).

    Even if the outlets have 3 prong holes and you see some ROMEX, it doesn't mean they redid the whole system with ROMEX, there will be hidden from view junction boxes that might still have old wire in them, or old plastered over live wires.

    Fix it quick--flickering and surging is not a good thing--it's very dangerous.

    You may be forced by law to bring it up to current code, GFCI Breakers, etc... ($$$$)

    And make sure the smoke detectors are up (not expired) and working properly.

    I shudder to think how you will feel if someone burns to death in there.

    >>>>What @James Wise said<<<< Get a GOOD Licenced Electrician in there ASAP...

    And some of those old houses have no fire stops inside the walls, meaning they go up in flames very, very quickly.

    Make sure the electrician "Pulls the needed Permits" and is licenced and has good references.

    Yikes! Thanks for all tips I'm on it,  and working on finding a good licensed electrician.  Here's the panel at the house for any experts on here.  Like I said I've never had any power complaints with previous tenants with the 60 amps. I'll upgrade but still want her out of there. 

     Maybe ask the guy 2 Pista above you for a recommendation for a good Electrition?

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    so, first, change the name you are using if it your real name  because second,  it sounds just like retaliation if you ask her to leave (and you just left a nice summary of the whole thing for anyone with an internet connection to find) 

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Cristal A.:
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    What @James Wisesaid.

    Plus, 60 amps, that might be old 110V service and those old fabric covered wires.

    The flickering and surging might be the OLDEN DAYS fabric wires arcing inside the walls (a fire on it's way to starting).

    Even if the outlets have 3 prong holes and you see some ROMEX, it doesn't mean they redid the whole system with ROMEX, there will be hidden from view junction boxes that might still have old wire in them, or old plastered over live wires.

    Fix it quick--flickering and surging is not a good thing--it's very dangerous.

    You may be forced by law to bring it up to current code, GFCI Breakers, etc... ($$$$)

    And make sure the smoke detectors are up (not expired) and working properly.

    I shudder to think how you will feel if someone burns to death in there.

    >>>>What @James Wise said<<<< Get a GOOD Licenced Electrician in there ASAP...

    And some of those old houses have no fire stops inside the walls, meaning they go up in flames very, very quickly.

    Make sure the electrician "Pulls the needed Permits" and is licenced and has good references.

    Yikes! Thanks for all tips I'm on it,  and working on finding a good licensed electrician.  Here's the panel at the house for any experts on here.  Like I said I've never had any power complaints with previous tenants with the 60 amps. I'll upgrade but still want her out of there. 

    It'd be pretty stupid to remove the tenant. Sounds like the only thing the tenant did is try to get you to fix something you should have fixed already, and are now apparently going to fix anyway. What business sense does it make for you to now remove an income stream and incur a ton of turnover costs? In addition to reducing your income while increasing your costs, you're also opening yourself up to this retaliation law you speak of. Bad move, I see no logic behind your decision to do this.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    Looks like an old Cutler-Hammer panel which was a decent panel at least. However 60A is considered underpowered for modern electrical systems, most are 200A these days. I'd upgrade to at least 100A (or whatever is appropriate for the home, an electrician should be able to let you know what size you'll need). It also appears you have some wiring with deteriorated insulation. The flickering and inconsistent power could be related to that wiring. Old aluminum wiring especially will cause flickering lights as it deteriorates. In fact this is probably the most common cause of flickering lights, other than bulbs not being screwed in all the way. I would have a competent electrician check for aluminum wiring and hotspots as a starting point, because this can also be hazardous.  Or it could also be bad breakers (check if it's only happening on certain circuits), defective electrical service supply/voltage fluctuations (unlikely unless the whole neighborhood is having the same problems), service entry wiring defects, a loosely connected neutral or other issue with the neutral, loose connections anywhere in the circuit with the flickering lights, or a number of other things we wouldn't know without being able to inspect the system. Whatever it is, it's not the tenants fault. Sounds like you've got an old electrical system that needs to be fixed/upgraded by a qualified electrician asap.  

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    4y

    A floating neutral is a dangerous situation . It could also be a supplier issue at the electric pole 

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 266 posts · 188 votes
    4y

    @Cristal A.- Everyone pretty much summed it up. 60 AMPs is not adequate for modern homes. From the photo you sent you have some old wiring. I've dealt with outdated electric a decent number of times.  All it takes is one outlet to go bad and then all the lights on that circuit start to flicker. You will go to try and replace the outlet and the cloth is all burned. At that point, you need to just rewire the unit. The problem with the outdated electric is it can be fine for years without any problems and then suddenly it goes bad.

     If you do have to do a full blown rewire/remodel, that will be hard to do with a tenant in there. It can be a very messy job and will probably upset your tenant. If you are legitimately going to bring everything up to current code and possibly do other remodel work, you might have a case for nonrenewal to make the required repairs. I'd contact a lawyer and make sure you actually do all the required work. If you just end the lease and rent it again without doing repairs, then it will more than likely be considered retaliatory.  

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    Appreciate all the replies, thank you

    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @George P.:

    sounds like the electrician is an idiot. was he licensed? he's supposed to put at LEAST 100amp panel and fix all the issues. seems like he did the bare minimum to get paid. we manage and update a T O N of houses west of telegraph and we never have "floating neutral" issues.

    get a new electrician and make the tenant happy. 

    you "not being present" has nothing to do with the issues around the house. you do not need to be present in order to make sure it's done right.

     Yea I really think you've just hired the wrong electrician here. Get the right one in there to upgrade the service to the home and stop going to the house with your contractors when they do service calls. That's not something you need to be doing. Just get yourself the right people. If I had to guess you're probably trying to hire the cheapest contractors. Stop doing that. It doesn't pay off in the end. Heck, your time having to go with these people and babysit them why they trouble shoot problems in the home is worth more than the difference between a top guy and a Chuck with a Truck off Craigslist any day.

    Lol you're right I am frugal and I'm working on that. Thanks for the tips.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    4y

    I work in the electrical industry for a major circuit breaker / panel board manufacture. First thing I will say is take your tenants complaints seriously. You seem to think because there was never a problem for the last 36 years that it will be fine for the next 36 years. That is completely illogical. Every building that ever collapsed was standing the previous day... It sounds like these power problems are intermittent, so assuming an electrician could trouble shoot, assumes the problems was occurring when they were there. I believe your tenant is telling the truth and this could be a fire hazard. Here are my thoughts and feel free to share with an electrician:

    - I have had power surges and missing power issues traced back to a missing phase on the incoming line. Since typical power to homes had two hots and a neutral, missing one hot can result in power to only a portion of the home. The half of the house without power can still get partial voltage, since current can find alternate paths. In my rental house, it resulted in some light bulbs being lit up dimly, even thought the phase was gone! Call the utility and asked them what they found.

    - I have had power issues related to bad receptacles, where the connections were intermittent. Receptacles can generally last 30-40 years before they may need replacing. Based on the appearance of the panel, the receptacles and switches are probably all very old. Some bad receptacles could be creating strange problems. 

    - If you had a short from neutral to line, that would result in 240 volts at half the receptacles in the house and undervoltage at the other receptacles. This lines up with the description, but the short could literally be coming from anywhere and could be hard to trace. Circuit breakers should trip when the line voltage is shorted direct shorted, but if the short has high resistance, breakers will not trip but current will flow. This is a fire hazard. 

    - The panel board needs to be updated. The 60 amp service and lack of main panel breaker is a safety hazard. A new panel board should be have a main breaker and I would install arc fault and ground fault breakers (depending on circuit). These breakers will help detect wiring issues that are likely the cause. 

    - There are cloth jacketed wires in the panel board, which I can see damage to the jacket of the wire. That is not good and it speaks to the general condition of the wiring. Ideally you should rewire the entire property. This is a fire hazard and the power problems are probably a warning sign of a more serious issue. A high resistance short that doesn't trip circuit breakers is usually generating massive heat at the short point. This is the root of most electrical fires.

    - Even if you don't replace the panel board. There are C&H/Eaton retrofit circuit breakers that have Arc Fault protection. These could be installed on the panelboard and probably reused in a new panel board if you replaced later.

    - You mentioned water in the panel board and wet/corroded breakers. This is really bad and I believe it is true based on the rust damage in the photo. Water and electricity do not mix. Make sure the water issue is addressed. It was a good decision for your electrician to replace the breakers, but it is possible there is other damage he didn't see/address.

    - I am unsure if this panel board has proper grounding and neutral. The ground bus bar has no large copper wire indicating it is grounded to a water line. It could be behind the panel board or the panel board itself may be acting as the ground. The panel board is steel, so that is not ideal. In a new installation there would be a large copper wire on the ground bus bar either tied to copper water lines or a ground rod that goes into the ground. Neutral is in the upper left hand corner but hard to see what it is tied too. The fact that your electrician mentioned neutral leads me to believe they saw a concern. Floating neutral or floating ground is an electrocution hazard and could cause other power issues.

    My biggest concern is that these power problems are the signs of a serious safety and fire hazard. The electrical problems have been well documented, so you now have major liability concerns. Electrocution or fire is a very real concern. Talk to Section 8 about habitability concerns. The tenant should really move out so you can rewire and replace the panel board. You may even want to upgrade incoming service from the transformer. It would not be considered retaliation if you were asking the tenant to leave due to safety concerns. Documenting that may help with liability too. I would speak with an attorney before doing anything else.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y

    Contact the tenant immediately, and in writing. Let her know she needs to sign the mutual termination of contract and start looking for another place to live. Tell her you've discovered the property was not properly registered and that it's not safe with all these electrical issues. You want it empty so you can wire the entire house properly. Her lease terminates naturally in 90 days so tell her she can leave any time between now and the natural termination date, but she has to be out by the termination date at the latest.

    Don't worry about the retaliation claim. She can claim you molested her dog but that doesn't make it true or automatically determine she will win the case.

    Contact several reputable electricians to investigate the entire house and give you a bid. Get it fixed, register it so you are operating legally, and then market for a new renter.

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  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y

    Everything that @Joe Splitrock said, with one addition.

    This may not be a bad incoming phase on the main line, but an incoming phase on one of the bad breakers, if the house has multiwire branch circuits. I recently had to deal with that myself.

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    4y

    Just to set the record straight, the city can't require you to replace the 60 amp panel because it is "grand-fathered" - meaning if it was up to code when it was installed they can't force you to replace it now or in the future. 

    This doesn't mean you shouldn't replace it and upgrade the wiring, especially if you're having problems with it.

    Would highly recommend hiring a master residential electrician, not commercial, and have them give a complete writeup of what is wrong. 

    THEN you can make a solid, informed decision.

    We recently had a similar intermittent electrical problem on a Class C Detroit property. Hired a master electrician who found a bad connection from DTE - that DTE had missed when they were brought out to inspect. The electrician was very specific where the problem was, which we relayed to DTE and they finally fixed. 

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Drew Sygit:

    Just to set the record straight, the city can't require you to replace the 60 amp panel because it is "grand-fathered" - meaning if it was up to code when it was installed they can't force you to replace it now or in the future. 

    This doesn't mean you shouldn't replace it and upgrade the wiring, especially if you're having problems with it.

    Would highly recommend hiring a master residential electrician, not commercial, and have them give a complete writeup of what is wrong. 

    THEN you can make a solid, informed decision.

    We recently had a similar intermittent electrical problem on a Class C Detroit property. Hired a master electrician who found a bad connection from DTE - that DTE had missed when they were brought out to inspect. The electrician was very specific where the problem was, which we relayed to DTE and they finally 

    Thanks a bunch

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    Thanks so much everyone for your help with this. Love you all lol😘

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Cristal A.:

    Thanks so much everyone for your help with this. Love you all lol😘

     Well let us know what happens as things move along....(this is an interesting thread).

  • Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:
    Originally posted by @Cristal A.:

    Thanks so much everyone for your help with this. Love you all lol😘

     Well let us know what happens as things move along....(this is an interesting thread).

    Will do.

  • Member since 2018 · 563 posts · 562 votes
    4y

    You just got the combined experience of about 100+ years in the replies on this thread. Please listen to them, they are absolutely correct!

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