mortgage insurance for seller-financed property

mortgage insurance for seller-financed property

Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes

I am about to sell an investment property to a tenant who got a settlement and can now afford a down payment. She is very eager to buy. I own the house free and clear, and would provide seller financing. This is the first time I've done this.

I plan to offer the buyer a choice of loans. One has a down payment of 25% of the agreed price, with a shorter term loan. She can afford this, and it is really her best choice, because she ultimately pays less for the property. I benefit by getting more cash up front. This lowers my risk, although I make less profit by the end of the loan.

But she may want to put down a lower down payment and pay the remainder over a longer period. I am willing to offer her a loan with a down payment equivalent to 18.75% of the agreed price, allowing her to hold onto more of her cash, but ultimately she will pay more for the house. This means in the long term it is more profitable for me, but in the short term I have the risk of less up-front cash.

The difference in profit is not huge, and all things considered, I'd prefer that she accept the higher down payment. But I feel it's important to give her a choice, and either choice is acceptable to me.

So here are my questions. Has anyone who seller-finances been able to secure mortgage insurance? Should I seek it, if she chooses the lower down payment option? Where would I find an insurer willing to issue a policy to me? So far I have only found ones that issue to institutional lenders. My insurance go-to doesn't know of anyone.

Just go be clear, I'm talking about the insurance that institutional lenders roll into the monthly payments of borrowers who put down less than 20% of the price of a property. I believe the mortgage insurance fee is lifted when the borrower has paid back 20% of the principle.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

0Reply
173 views

Most Popular Reply

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y

Mortgage Insurance as a whole is based on standardized underwriting guidelines.  Most of the guidelines base their criteria off of DU, DO or LP findings.  Typically private lenders do not go to this length to underwrite loans.  

To be clear, what that means is the private lender would abide by and use those Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac established guidelines with perhaps overlays which are slightly more conservative.  In much of what I see today, private lenders exist very distant from those types of guidelines.  

The challenge in the private lender area is that there is zero established standard.  If there is no standard there is nothing to base risk on and with no risk understanding nobody will insure.  

As Wayne mentioned Mortgage Insurance does not make the lender whole.  it is an insurance against loss after the asset has been fully disposition.  As one might imagine the process to be paid on a claim is no walk in the park.  This too adds a layer of difficulty for a private lender.  The loans must be serviced properly which doesn't always  happen.

See this reply in the discussion

23 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    To be clear, you are not asking about hazard insurance for your borrower with you added as additional insured. But rather, you want to know if you can buy mortgage insurance for when/if the borrower defaults? As far as I know that kind of insurance is only available to institutional lenders. I can't imagine who would write such a policy for a lender with only one mortgage.

    Please post back if you find any one who does write such policies.

    I suggest making sure you get the legal advice to make sure you are in compliance with the Safe Act for your state. There are things you probably should have in file. Loan apps and disclosures, etc. are required for consumer loans.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    No, I believe I had the only seller financed loan guarantee program in the country, not insurance, but very similar. Insurance is provided based on underwriting guidelines and seller financed notes don't cut it.

    However, if there weere an enterprising someone out there that has a mortgage license, is bonded, insured, and can underwrite for PMI, now that seller financed notes are more farmalized, it might be possible to implement such a program, but to date, no, pretty sure of it.

    Editeed as I thought it was a borrower, sorry. You have a sufficient down payment, what I suggest you dois have the loan serviced, they professionally collect the paymentsdo the accounting, prepare tax statements/filings, ensure insurance and taxes are paid and the borrower usually pays the premium or you can split it. Search here for "loan servicing" Good luck. ")

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
    ... But, I'm not sure how you got anywhere close to 18%, that is too high period and may not even be allowed under a usury law if such applies to your deal. ...

    Bill Gulley, you should seriously look into those reading glasses. The roughly 18% was the down payment amount, not the interest rate being charged.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    LOL, I was skimming it, without my glasses, but I caught it....

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    13y

    I appreciate these comments and find them quite enlightening. Bill, many thanks for mentioning loan servicing, will follow through. Hadn't thought of that.

    Again I'm impressed at how useful a resource this community is. Many thanks, everyone!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Nancy Roth I strongly suggest you have your buyer go to a mortgage broker, with you, to see where your buyer is as far as qualifying. There are issues with the SAFE Act that I assume doesn't pertain to you, but following some easy qualifying issues will tell you her ability to meet the loan requirements, it's not just about her having enough money to pay. Failing to provide the loan in a prudent manner presents more of a risk than another 5 or 7% down.

    The servicing will really address many of your risks as well, glad to hear you will consider (hopefull require) it.

    I'll caution you too in basically taking most or all of the money a buyer like this may have, cleaning someone out and not allowing reserves can cause other problems and could make things appear to be predatory. 15% down is a good down on SF deals running terms long enough to cure any road block to conventional financing, I'd say most deals are done with less.

    Dealing with those that received lump sums from any source is an indication they lack the ability to save, the skin in the game carries less weight than if it had been saved over time, with the blood, sweat and tears. You can judge her attitude toward her newly found opportunity to buy a home, but there needs to be a balance allowing reserves to succeed as she may not be prone to saving.

    If you have time, there are also free first time homebuyer programs for those who have not owned a home, many organizations require classes before buying and these have shown that completion of a class reduces lending problems. You could approach her with a sence of concern saying she needs to do all she can to protect her new home as well as your collateral. Allowing her to do this or suggesting that she does, will make your involvement as a SF seller be shown in a better light, a good defense to any claim of predatory activities.

    Anyway, sounds like you have a good deal going, good luck. :)

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    bill, are there threads on BP the detail the "seller financing" in depth? I am interested in it, but did not find many details in the threads i read.

    also, a quick search on Michigan safe act turns up nothing. my google fu is failing me.

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    13y

    Bill, if I didn't know you as the dedicated educator you are, that word "predatory" would get my hackles up. Let me explain the scenario.

    The buyer is in her late 50s, permanently disabled, and relies on Social Security for her monthly income. I know that income, she had to provide me with documentation from Social Security when she applied to rent. It is steady and predictable, but it is low. I can tell you, she would never qualify for an institutional loan, especially not in this era.

    This modest settlement offers her a shot at taking some measure of control over her life through homeownership. It is not enough to buy the house, but if I offer her access to financing, she can manage it through her small but steady income.

    The key is to keep the monthly payments affordable, without stretching the loan out too long, because the longer the loan, the more she ultimately pays for the house. Also, because of her age, I'd like her to own the house free and clear within ten years, or even less, if possible. The two financing options I laid out in my initial post both get her there--plus she gets to choose her path. Both are acceptable to me, although each has advantages and disadvantages.

    Now, Bill, to respond to your point about requiring a down payment that "cleans someone out" and can appear "predatory". I don't know where you got that impression, but it certainly was not from my post. Even the higher down payment leaves her with half her settlement amount. The lower down payment leaves her with two-thirds of it. Neither loan structure "cleans her out."

    Now, if I aimed to be predatory I would do exactly what you suggest, which is to set the down payment much lower, leaving her with an unaffordable monthly payment. She would then have to draw on her modest nest egg to pay it, until she were to run out of money. And when she could no longer pay, I would foreclose and take back the property.

    I believe I could follow that unethical course of action without breaking any laws. But that is not how I do business.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Nancy Roth, whooo, :) I believe I'm pretty good at understanding proposed transactions as I've not just seen them before but I've seen them many times before. I do read between the lines and at times a key word trips my situational awareness.

    The initial key points; A buyer who gets a lump sum settlement-I already addressed such indicates the buyer may lack the ability or inclined to save, mentioned in the original post.

    About a 7% spread in the amount to finance on two choices, but the term is adjusted which means there is no or little difference in the payment amount. Sounds like the loan is being manipulated to more of a set payment, not the same perhaps, but close. Standard practice is to have options as to the length of time, interest rates and where more is paid down, it provides a smaller payment obligation.

    Another issue was your wanting an insured loan, why would an individual seller go there if they were confident the deal would work? I understand why, what you may not know is that PMI only covers 80% of the loan, never 100%, so it doesn't offer much protection when the loan to value is based on market value and where the down payment is over 10%. Knowing too, that a buyer getting seller financing rarely gets an appraisal, I assumed you set the price.

    While you did not mention who approached who about your selling it is very possible for a landlord who is aware of a tenant receiving a lump sum to swoop down on that as an opportunity to sell, not saying you did, saying it happens often. Saying the buyer is very excited indicates to me that she might not have been aware that she could buy and probably didn't initiate the sale conversation.

    While you stated she can afford either payment you also stated she would not be able to get a conventional loan. You never mentioned a balloon payment but I assume you are fully amortizing the loan. Be that as it may, you are seller financing to someone who can't qualify for other loans with as much as much as 25% down.

    Then there is the position that a seller is really "helping" someone. I was heavily involved in non-profit organizations helping people get into housing, I know where that line is as not everyone is suited to be a homeowner. Usually what I see is that when a seller claims to be helping some poor buyer out it actually arises out of a justification of an underlying sence of guilt. People in business don't sell properties to help the buyer out so much as they do to help themselves out as well. Did you mention other properties in her price range that might be seller financed or tell her to inquire with any non-profit organization for any other opportunities? I doubt it, since she is so excited with this opportunity.

    Frankly, when someone says they are trying to help someone (unless they are related or really old and great friends) it sets off an alarm that says look deeper, when someone invokes a religious motivation I hide my wallet. It's not human nature to help another party out more than yourself in business, fair yes, selling at a disadvantage, no.

    Now, Nancy, I did not say you were being predatory but if you look at the picture above objectively you might see why I was advising to take care not to be predatory. I didn't say you were screwing anyone over now did I (?) but that it could appear that way.

    If there is not room for the buyer to finance 3.75% more of the deal than your 18+% down option and that causes my suggestion to be predatory, then she is already too high with her ratios (which you may not have considered). I am glad to hear that she will have half her money left after the sale and that she is not dumping most or all that she has in the deal.

    And now that I see your hopes are that she can payoff the property in 10 or less years, well that says alot too. Due to her income being fixed and social security disability payments she probably doesn't top $1,200 a month. An amortization to get a ten year payoff?

    36% DTI brings us to a total payment of 432.00, I assume the DC area is not cheap, it's a high cost of living area for some government workers, so I'm sure taxes and insurance are close to a hundred a month, guessing. So, 332 at your 8% with a ten year payout is a loan amount of 27,363 and at 25% gives us a sale price of $36,484 or at 18% down a price of 33,369. From what you said, I'd then guess her lump sum was about 50K. :)

    So, it really appears that the sale price is 40k or under and if the property is in the DC area, I'd say it might be in a war zone. Certainly an older home, certainly not in the Arlington, Va area where I stayed.

    Hopefully the place will remain standing another 25 or 30 years putting her in her elderly years. In ten years she can afford to begin a maintenance plan. It's great she has some reserves, I suggest you tell her not to go buy a new car and save most of it at her age.

    So, I will also assume that you're selling with a payment that is close to her rent and is how you decided that she can afford the place. Did you factor in maintenance, I can see that could be the reason to sell the place.

    BTW, you're selling a non-owner occupied dwelling so it sounds like in this case the SAFE Act applies to your deal. See an attorney to set up whichever plan she selects. They can keep you from having your deal APPEAR to be predatory. :)

    George P., There are tons of posts on seller financing and things to watch out for. I suggest you search for "What do you want Mr Note Buyer" it's about doing a seller financed note to be sold on a condo but has alot of info in it. If you can't find a topic you can always ask and start a new topic. Good luck to all! :)

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    bill, found that thread. appreciate the guidance!

  • Investor · Washington, Washington D.C. · Member since 2012 · 240 posts · 168 votes
    13y

    Well, Bill, you are quite perceptive, but in certain aspects of your analysis you did read a a little more into the situation than was there. I do appreciate your comments, although I wish you had asked for more information instead of working so much on inference.

    This is a public forum, after all. It's really not fair to raise questions about another participant's ethics or practices until you have all the facts. It's also not going to encourage participation, if people worry they have to weather an attack if they ask a simple question.

    Just to wrap this up in response to your last entry, the property is in Baltimore, where I grew up, and it's not in a war zone, and in fact is not far from the area where Johns Hopkins is doing a very promising community development project, including taking over a neighborhood school.

    The monthly mortgage payment will be a little more than half the cost of the rent, depending on what loan structure she chooses. Both loan structures call for full amortization, one in ten years, the other in nine.

    The truth is, I might have made more profit in the long term by keeping things as they were. On the other hand, I get a slight immediate advantage by freeing up funds for other projects. I could have gone either way. There was no swooping down, and I had no reason to run away from the investment.

    The brick rowhouse is of the vintage of most in downtown Baltimore: early 20th century. I put in a large number of repairs, and it has a lot of use in it. It is a pretty good investment for her. She also gets an extra bedroom she can rent out to supplement her income, which she cannot do as a renter.

    Why did I ask BP about insurance? I haven't done a seller finance before and was exploring all my options, at the encouragement of my lawyer. I brought the question to the forum because I couldn't get a clear answer from other research. The answers were helpful.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Nancy: IMO, knowing what you know about your tenant buyer's income and assets, I think you are overly concerned with giving her mortgage choices. While respectful, it is treating her as is she is a financial equal, which she is not. Rather you should make sure you are adequately covered if she defaults. I'd not go for less than a 20% down payment. Unfortunately, the likelihood of her defaulting is pretty high. Even if she is left with half of her cash settlement after making a down payment, that money is new to her life and will likely not be saved or preserved for future mortgage payments. It appears that your tenant can currently afford her rent with her SS income. If her cash gets spent, her income may not be able to support her payment to you, plus the required insurance, property taxes and repairs.

    If it were me, and I'd work the numbers to get to a down payment and interest rate that puts her PITI in line with SS income. I really think you should base your loan on her income, not her liquid assets.

    Again, I suggest that you get legal advice about the Safe Act and seller carry backs in your state. You may want to have the loan brokered if you find that the regs require that the loan be originated by a licensed mortgage originator.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Nancy Roth, I have been pointing out issues that are precieved or might be assumed, not accusing you of ill intent. Not so much as to any personal opinion of you personally, but as to similar situations. Usually a member will just spill the deal and give the figures so that we can all provide input specifically, after your responce I doubted you wanted to go in depth about the matter and assumptions were all that were left to me.

    Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I hope you now realize how predatory issues arise even when there are good intentions. Actually, that is what usually happens in reality, a seller thinks they are being logical and fair and unknowingly make some blunders that spoil the deal in the future.

    Let me provide some positive aspects. For one, your buyer is at little risk of losing her income, at her age she is at little risk at all in being revaluated as to her qualification for SS. She will receive that income til she dies and that is a big plus considering most people are at the risk of job losses forous reasons. Her income is solid.

    For a seller financed transaction her after closing reserves are great! The target is having 6 months of PITI after closing, many deals are done at less, but taht is a good target and she far exceeds that.

    As K. Marie points out, her loan should be based on her income and her total debts. Her monthly PITI should be around 24-26% ideally with her house payment and all other debts being no more than 36-40% as these are pretty much conventional guidlines. But, there can be a variance, if she has no other debts or her other debts will be paid off in 6 months or less, you can go up on her PITI ratio, 34% is fine, getting over that she has no room for any other short term debt. At lower incomes like hers the ratios need to be tighter. If one had an income of $3,000 a month, 40% for PITI could be acceptable at 1,200 as they can live on the balance of 1,800 a month.

    If you stick to these ratios. that significantly reduces her chances of getting behind, she needs sufficient funds to have a life. And, at that I don't see any reason to suggest a greater chance of foreclosure. If her other credit is not bad (even if it is limited) from a financial point of view she appear to be a very good risk for you.

    A fact of life is that many on disability often have some related mental issues taht may stand alone or be related to physical ailments. If such issues exist they can impact ones willingness to pay, especially if all they are doing is making a house payment. Care needs to be taken if you can see any manic issues, they may change attitudes from any high being excited over the deal to being very depressed months later. I'm no shrink, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying, such matters are as important about the willingness to pay as the ability to pay at lower incomes. If her payments are less than the rents she has paid, that's very good and her past rental history weighs heavily on her ability to pay.

    In all fairness, it is an older house and while it's brick, brick still needs maintenance as well as interior issues. This is usually assessed with reserves a borrower's ability to pay future expenses. The draw back with those on fixed incomes is that they lack the ability to earn more usually, what they get is what they must make do from now on. In this situation with the additional reserves and an early payoff possible, as I said, her monthly payments may be converted to a maintenance plan. The issue though is if there is any major issue such as a new roof being needed or a new furnace, if there are such issues I strongly suggest that you disclose those issues. Usually, I'd say consider another 5% or so, depends on many factors, for maintenance, but I won't in this case.

    In this case it will be much better to fully amortize the loan at a payment required and solve for the interest rate. 120 months for 27,300 at a payment of 432-100? for taxes and insurance give you 8.05% or 8% as we said above. $300 a month would be 5.77 or 5.75% (considering current rates to be earned, still not bad, IMO), not asking you to do that, but that puts her ratio at 25% and makes an ideal loan, assuming she has paid on time, I'd say that's as good as it gets overall and you'd have much less risk of default.

    Now, tie that to a loan servicing company with her paying say $15.00 monthly for servicing, that's a great seller financed loan from the`stand point of assumed risk. At that, you'd have really no need to have mortgage insurance even if it were available, so consider what the insurance might have cost. (LOL)

    Run this by your attorney/mortgage originator, remember the SAFE Act, the note terms outlined will meet those requirements.

    Again, sorry for the assumptions, it's all I had really. Good luck!

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    To be clear, you are not asking about hazard insurance for your borrower with you added as additional insured. But rather, you want to know if you can buy mortgage insurance for when/if the borrower defaults? As far as I know that kind of insurance is only available to institutional lenders.

    Here's another view on the subject of PMI:

    1. http://banking-law.lawyers.com/mortgages/seller-fi...

    And another:

    1. https://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=410625
  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jeff B.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    To be clear, you are not asking about hazard insurance for your borrower with you added as additional insured. But rather, you want to know if you can buy mortgage insurance for when/if the borrower defaults? As far as I know that kind of insurance is only available to institutional lenders.

    Here's another view on the subject of PMI:

    1. http://banking-law.lawyers.com/mortgages/seller-fi...

    And another:

    1. https://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=410625

    Those links don't contain any info about how a seller offering seller financing can find PMI for their borrower/buyer. Do you know who is offering such a product? And what the requirements are?

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Jeff B.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    To be clear, you are not asking about hazard insurance for your borrower with you added as additional insured. But rather, you want to know if you can buy mortgage insurance for when/if the borrower defaults? As far as I know that kind of insurance is only available to institutional lenders.

    Here's another view on the subject of PMI:

    1. http://banking-law.lawyers.com/mortgages/seller-fi...

    And another:

    1. https://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=410625

    Those links don't contain any info about how a seller offering seller financing can find PMI for their borrower/buyer. Do you know who is offering such a product? And what the requirements are?

    Yep, I saw that too and it bugs me that we get partial info, but we can only do due diligence. Notice the second link is very pessimistic on PMI due to higher qualification requirements - - grrr.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    As far as I know, PMI doesn't usually make the lender completely whole. It only covers/pays the difference between the down payment, and what 20% would be. The lender/investor eats anything below 80%.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    But is PMI even available to borrowers with private lenders. You'd have to create a loan with down and a file the meets the insurance requirements......but who would write that policy for a seller financed borrower?

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Dion DePaoli Is PMI for borrowers being financed by private lenders even a thing?

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    Don't think so.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Mortgage Insurance as a whole is based on standardized underwriting guidelines.  Most of the guidelines base their criteria off of DU, DO or LP findings.  Typically private lenders do not go to this length to underwrite loans.  

    To be clear, what that means is the private lender would abide by and use those Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac established guidelines with perhaps overlays which are slightly more conservative.  In much of what I see today, private lenders exist very distant from those types of guidelines.  

    The challenge in the private lender area is that there is zero established standard.  If there is no standard there is nothing to base risk on and with no risk understanding nobody will insure.  

    As Wayne mentioned Mortgage Insurance does not make the lender whole.  it is an insurance against loss after the asset has been fully disposition.  As one might imagine the process to be paid on a claim is no walk in the park.  This too adds a layer of difficulty for a private lender.  The loans must be serviced properly which doesn't always  happen.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    Mortgage Insurance as a whole is based on standardized underwriting guidelines.  Most of the guidelines base their criteria off of DU, DO or LP findings.  Typically private lenders do not go to this length to underwrite loans.  

    To be clear, what that means is the private lender would abide by and use those Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac established guidelines with perhaps overlays which are slightly more conservative.  In much of what I see today, private lenders exist very distant from those types of guidelines.  

    The challenge in the private lender area is that there is zero established standard.  If there is no standard there is nothing to base risk on and with no risk understanding nobody will insure.  

    As Wayne mentioned Mortgage Insurance does not make the lender whole.  it is an insurance against loss after the asset has been fully disposition.  As one might imagine the process to be paid on a claim is no walk in the park.  This too adds a layer of difficulty for a private lender.  The loans must be serviced properly which doesn't always  happen.

    So then...that's a no?  Thanks Dion!

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    It's the Old-Boy-Club problem.  Private money has no standards, in part because Fredie and Fanny keep those standards to themselves specifically to lockout private money.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.