If you're paying utilities, what do you set the thermostat at?

Question

For winter?

For summer?

I read that most offices set their thermostat at 72.

Around here, 72 in the summer gets expensive even in the summer.

David Krulac · Answer

Jon K.

MY goal is to not pay for anybody's heat unless they're married to me or related to me by blood.

I also don't want to pay for their electric, and it would be even greater if I didn't pay for any of their utilities.

But I don't always get what I want.

The last 3 multi-unit buildings that I bought had one furnace/boiler, and the LL had to therefore pay the heat.

In one building there were already separate metered natural gas lines into each apartment line.  But the only appliance off those lines was the gas range.  Not any more!  I was paying the heat and the hot water for the building, and the heat equipment was about 70 years old.  Time for retirement.  I installed a new nat gas boiler and HWH for each apartment.  I reduce the tenants rent by $50 a month ($600 a year).  When there was a vacancy, the new tenant was raised $50 back to the old rent.  The payback was 2-3 years.  After that all gravy.

In the next building to save some money I kept the old furnace in place but cut the heat to the other apartments except one.  That tenant now had the old furnace to them selves and started to pay their own heat.  I also installed new gas HWHs for each apartment, and there was also existing metered nat gas lines into each apartment only for the gas range.   I also separated the electric and installed new 100 amp service for each tenant.  We ended up with all new tenants, who were paying the same rent as the old tenants, except free heat, hot water and electric were NOT included in the rent.  Payback period about 3-4 years.

In yet another building, when bought had one oil boiler and one electric HWH.  Both of the equipment were relatively new, having been replaced in the last few years.  Kept the existing equipment for 1 apt.  Contracted with gas co. to install new gas line, which required tearing up the street, 2 flagmen and a policeman directing traffic for the disabled traffic light down the block.  The gas co. paid for all those costs and permits.  Lower each tenants rent by $50 month.  And for the tenants getting new gas heat and new gas hot water heaters, threw in the bonus of new central air.  Payback period 2 years.

Currently have a building that I'm working on converting to individual heat, and have some other places where there is common heat and they can't be converted, so I don't have a perfect, I don't pay anybody's heat but I'm working in that direction.

And for the record, that's just another reason why I like single family rentals, those tenants ALWAYS pay their own heat, hot water and electric.

Rob K. · Answer

Wouldn't this get VERY expensive in the summertime?

David Krulac · Answer

Johann Jells

In building # 1 we left in the hot water radiators, did all the work in the basement, and just switched the fuel source from oil to gas with new boiler & HWH for each unit.  Cost about $3,200 per unit.

In building #2 we left in the hot air system and the ducts, with some modifications, did almost all work in the basement, only replaced furnaces costs less than $3,000 per unit.

In building 3 we did convert from oil steam heat with radiators & electric HWHs  to gas hot air with central air and gas HWH.  More costly, more work, were able to use existing system for 1 unit, costs about $6,000 per unit.

The longer that you plan to keep the building, the better savings you'll see, if your in it for the long haul.

And if you are thinking of selling, just think about how much better the bottom line will look to prospective buyers if you don't pay any heat, hot water or electric.

I have looked into separating the water too, it is definitely NOT cost effective, costs way too much for the return.  i would consider if I already had to replace the water line from the street in.

Randy F. · Answer

I dont believe there is any single answer that applies to every situation. I dont know, but it sounds like you have a two story home and rent out rooms. If thats the case, you likely have a central heating system, so each room is not zoned seperately. In this case you could have a corner room with two windows that has a greater heat loss than one with one window and less exterior wall space. The corner room could easily run two ot three degrees colder and that can make a huge difference. Also, if forced air, a room farthest away from furnace may have significantly less CFM than one close to it.

Location of the thermostat can also make a difference. Say it is located on an interior wall between the heat registers an a return air grill and becauae of the air circulation, thermostat is quickly satisfied. In this instance, it may be 68 in that room and only reach 65 in outlying rooms.

Unless ductwork is exposed in a crawlspace or unfinished basement, its difficult to balance. If exposed, dampers can be installed in each run and adjusted to balance system.

Another consideration is differential. The thermostat and heat loss both play a part in how much temp drop takes place before the call for heat and set point is reached. At a 68 degree set point, it will typically get down to about 65 before the upward swing in the cycle and will overshoot the set point by a degree or two.

The average person is comfortable between 68 and 72 and for every degree the temp moves out of that range people become increasingly uncomfortable. For that reason, IMO winter setting is best at 70 or 71. And the draftier a house or room is, the colder it will feel at the bottom of the cycle. Also, forced air typically needs to be set a hair higher than hot water baseboard because circulating air at bottom of cycle will feel cooler.

Dont know what applies to your situation. Hope this helps. Its easy to simply shrug off a tenants complaints, but there are situations where complaints are valid.

Johann Jells · Answer

David,  I considered separating out the heat on my 4U, but realized that the cost recovery wasn't between providing heat or not, but in the error or difference between what I added into the asking rent for heat and what it actually cost. It just didn't make sense to spend upwards of $20k to tear out all those cast iron radiators and install 4 new systems.

Johann Jells · Answer

City here says 70 day and 65 night.  The last owner of my new 4U purchase with steam heat claimed he spent $12k/yr on oil!! I put in a new properly sized gas boiler, set the thermostat to 70 and locked it down.  Tenant calls complaining of how cold it is, the heat isn't on!   Figuring there was a malfunction of the new system, I run up there, and it's 70 deg and she's wearing a tank top and shorts. "why don't you put on some clothes if you're cold" says I. "That's bullshit!" says she.  I then have to point out that the radiator being cold doesn't mean the heat is off, it just means the thermostat is satisfied.  It was like talking to the wall.

At least the Jan bill was under $600 and that section 8 tenant just moved out. No more of that for me, the damn seller put her in while the short was in contract. Nasty trick, he didn't even get over market at all.

Ned Carey · Answer

I am going to move into one of your places Jon. I like it cold at night I sleep better.  I currently have my thermostat set at 65 degrees.

I don't pay utilities for rentals so I can't comment on your original question.

Jon K. · Answer

Good recommendation here too. Last summer I set my setting to 78 during the summer and had roommates complain. But, they're not the ones paying utilities. I'm glad that 80 in 100+ degree heat is what other people use. Definitely sounds reasonable, and more efficient, to me.

I have a multi-story and always have a problem with the upper level being hotter than the rest of the house. I put a window unit up there. Unfortunately, I always end up with whiny tenant/roommates up there who want to keep it in the lower 70s in the middle of the ridiculously hot summer. With a window unit, I don't know what they set it at unless I were to go into their room. The central heat/air for the lower level I'll plan on keeping at 78 this summer. At least during the day.

Is it more efficient to turn it to 78 during the day, 74 or so at night?

Or to keep it somewhere in-between 24/7?

Jon K. · Answer

Interesting, I'll try that setting!

And here I was thinking I was "skimping a little" at 70 in the winter. I once had a whiny tenant/roommate who thought 70 is cold and got an electric heater. I'm going to turn that puppy down to 68 now. 65 at night? Does that feel cold?

Sounds very energy efficient, which is something I'm trying to get better at. My utility bills have always been high in this house. No wonder. I thought 70 in the winter, 75-78 was "normal." Oops. The first year I lived here I set it to 72 year-round, winter or summer. That was EXPENSIVE.

Jesse Tsai · Answer

Here in Vegas, we set thermostats to 80 in the Summer, and 67 in the winter.

While 80 is quite high,  its feel really cool when you come in from 100+ degree heat.

We found that temperature to be efficient for keeping prospective buyers comfortable while keeping our utility costs down.

If you're paying utilities, what do you set the thermostat at?

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