Family member as PM turning out to be incompetent

Family member as PM turning out to be incompetent

Mariah JefferyBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2009 · 205 posts · 51 votes

I have 19 units out of state, 14 of which are "managed" by my father in law a 5-plex that's managed by a PM co. My FIL really doesn't know much about the legalities or care to learn, so I do a lot of the work myself from a distance. He shows the properties and collect the apps, while I process the apps, place the ads, and do the paperwork. We pay my FIL 5% and the PM company 10%, since my FIL does (at most) half of the PM duties. He's not very familiar with the law so I always remind him what he can.

We had 4 vacancies in March and April, and he leased them out. I had known before that a few times, the tenants planned to move in on the first and he went ahead and gave them the keys a few days early so they could "move in a little here and there" but not pay rent until the first. I gave him a stern talking to, and I think it may have sunk it.

I just found out his method of getting the lease signed was to leave it with them and ask them to drop it off in his mailbox when he got done (because they were "so busy moving!"). Of course, one of the tenants still hasn't gotten around to doing that from March. We have a tenant living in one of our units with effectively no lease!! I pretty much tore him a new one for that. I can't believe he could be that dumb. I think the tenant is just lazy to bring it back and will do so with some reminding, but it still bugs the **** out of me.

To be fair, my FIL hasn't been doing this all that long. We've had one property since March '07 that we bought with tenants and it only had the first vacancy in Jan '10. We started buying more in Oct. '10 and he really never dealt with vacancies until Feb.-March '10. He's made a few other dumb mistakes, but nothing this serious.

The extra PM fees would eat into our cashflow seriously (the 14 units he manages bring in almost $10,000/month in rent, so the extra 5% to pay the PM co. would be ~$500/month). On the other hand, getting sued because he does something dumb or having to evict a tenant without a rental agreement would be pretty costly too.

I'm looking for opinions - should I keep him and work harder on trying to "train" him, or fire him and go with the PM co. despite it being twice as expensive?

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Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2009 · 624 posts · 559 votes
16y

Mariah, I think the key to your entire discussion was your statement that your FIL "doesn't care to learn" how to be a good PM.

It doesn't matter how much you pay him or how much you train him... if he doesn't care you will still have the same problems.

While the PM may be more expensive on a monthly basis... in the long run they will be less expensive as follows... you won't find yourself in court and you will be able to continue to expand through acquisitions.

Your risk posture is very high with your FIL attitude.

Best of luck!

Pete

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  • Mariah JefferyBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2009 · 205 posts · 51 votes
    16y

    Correction: We started buying more in Oct. '09.

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  • Note Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2009 · 849 posts · 544 votes
    16y

    Sounds like your FIL is a poor PM, period. Can you train him? Sure. Is he trainable? That's for you to determine.

    The best property manager will always be you, the owner. Your FIL has no real financial interest in making your apartments operating at maximal capacity. Sorry, that's the bottom line.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2009 · 624 posts · 559 votes
    16y

    Mariah, I think the key to your entire discussion was your statement that your FIL "doesn't care to learn" how to be a good PM.

    It doesn't matter how much you pay him or how much you train him... if he doesn't care you will still have the same problems.

    While the PM may be more expensive on a monthly basis... in the long run they will be less expensive as follows... you won't find yourself in court and you will be able to continue to expand through acquisitions.

    Your risk posture is very high with your FIL attitude.

    Best of luck!

    Pete

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  • Mariah JefferyBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2009 · 205 posts · 51 votes
    16y

    The funny thing is that when it comes to maintenance, he goes above and beyond. He takes personal pride in making the properties look nice, taking care of the lawns, and taking care of the tenants. The other day a tenant called and asked him to adjust her blinds, and he rushed over and did it! I think maybe the issue is he's trying too hard to be friends with the tenants.

    I wonder what kind of inappropriate comments he might have been making that could get us in trouble. For example, he told me once that he wouldn't show an applicant with 4 kids the top unit of our duplex because "his kids would run off the neighbors". Probably true, but not PC, and I'm sure the prospective tenant could have sued us for that comment if he was so inclined.

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  • Investor · Woonsocket, RI · Member since 2008 · 46 posts · 24 votes
    16y

    It seems like you already know the answer and that the extra $500 per month (some of which will be deductable so it's a bit less) will be a lot cheaper than a legal battle when he final "goes too far".

    So the problem probably comes down to "how do you fire your FIL?"

    A quick google search gave me the impression that PMs in Oregon (assuming he is there) have to have a license. So you could use that as your excuse as it doesn't sound like he is motivated enough to get one. "Sorry, we didn't know, our attorney has advised us that we should immediately get a licensed PM to avoid future issues, etc, etc"

    Pay the full 10% to a PM company and have him act as your general handy man as it sound liek that is more his area of comfort.

    Fred

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  • Mariah JefferyBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2009 · 205 posts · 51 votes
    16y

    Our properties are actually in South Dakota and no license is necessary, so I'll have to think up another excuse. Maybe he won't be upset if we keep him as the maintenance man.

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  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Mariah J.:
    Our properties are actually in South Dakota and no license is necessary, so I'll have to think up another excuse. Maybe he won't be upset if we keep him as the maintenance man.

    Promote him to the more specialized position of "Facilities Engineer."

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  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2009 · 624 posts · 559 votes
    16y

    At the risk of upsetting Mariah I have to comment on Jon's comment about "promoting to Facilities Manager"... the vision racing through my mind was the efficiency with which most poorly performing individuals in government are promoted to a position where they can't do any damage.

    Mariah, make the hard decision, get it over with, suffer any consequences and then continue building your business. You will be happy that you did.

    Pete

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  • Real Estate Investor · North Carolina · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 483 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Mariah J.:

    I wonder what kind of inappropriate comments he might have been making that could get us in trouble.


    The list is long and the penalties are onerous.
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  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Start a new thread where you're not trashing your own father in law and I'll reply. I know exactly what you're doing wrong here but I'm not going to contribute to threads where posters are trashing their own family, especially their elders.

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  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Peter Giardini:
    At the risk of upsetting Mariah I have to comment on Jon's comment about "promoting to Facilities Manager"... the vision racing through my mind was the efficiency with which most poorly performing individuals in government are promoted to a position where they can't do any damage.

    ...

    Pete


    That is commonly known as "The Peter Principle" - LOL :D
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