Section 8 Tenant wants to add 2 more-should we ask for more rent?

Question

We have a tenant on Section 8 in Missouri.  Single mother.  She wants to add her son's pregnant girlfriend and, in fairness to her daughter, her boyfriend.  "To help them get on their feet".  (We are not here to counsel the  family)  We are hesitant about this.  She is about to meet with HUD for her renewal.  Is this a situation where HUD would pay extra for the additional people?  We don't even know if HUD will approve of this situation.  We really don't want to lose them, but are concerned about the additional wear and tear on the property.  We have not raised the rent there since she moved in a couple years ago.

Diane S. · Answer

when you are renting section 8 has very specific guidelines as to how many adults may occupy the rental, and must give their blessing to the changes, they will do income and rental adjustments, but family size v rental amount is protected class, no you may not raise the rent based on family size but .... if there will be too many people to the bedroom count may not be your problem if she adds them to her voucher she may qualify for a larger unit and want to move or HUD may require her to move to a larger unit... she needs to understand she may not have this place to fall back on if her extra family moves out and she returns back to the lower voucher size and cant afford her bigger place, if she is a good tenant and you have a larger place great, HUD will pay more for additional brs not necessarily more people because they also account for extra income which could LOWER hud amount

if voucher is for a 2 br it cannot be used for 5 adults and child

although wear and tear might be an issue to consider try thinking HUD is paying for a br count not # people, you may have down time if she moves out but hud may have a new tenant for you

if voucher is for a 2 br it cannot be used for 5 adults and child

although wear and tear might be an issue to consider try thinking HUD is paying for a br count not # people, you may have down time if she moves out but hud may have a new tenant for you

Kim Tucker · Answer

No one really mentioned screening tenants.  And helping daughter and her boyfriend get on their feet means they can't go rent anything on their own as they don't qualify or have too many issues on the screening to actually get their own place.  Plus they have no money.

Section 8 also ages children out of the system.  So if her daughter is under 18, they might allow the daughter to go on the voucher, but not the boyfriend as he is not related.  And if the daughter is over 18, then I don't think they would allow her on the voucher.

And if you let them move in, and they have some sort of income, the mother might lose her voucher as the other adults in the house in theory at least should be able to pay rent.  When the 3 of them have a spat and the boyfriend leaves, and the daughter wants to sue the mother like on judge judy (this happens regularly I am sure) then you have a tenant with no voucher who needs to move.

I would run, real fast away from letting them move in  . . . however, I would bet they already live there and have been doing so for a while.  They are just now asking you about it because you probably noticed them.

Diane S. · Answer

ahhh I did reread.... son and daughter both currently occupy, but all three must have little income as an $8 contribution, that could change on renewal if she is now receiving disability, and definately will change if two more adults added depending on their income status, if students, college or high school? if college how do they live now?, if on financial aid may make a difference, living expenses allotment may be counted as income,  if high school and may make a difference if under parents support

with her renewal they will always recalculate finances

full ssi disabled ($733 base no dependents) pays 30% of ssi toward rent which is roughly $200 and utility adjustments, with 2 dependents would receive more ,  if she just got ssi, may also have lump sum pay out from ssi can use for purchase , home buying programs can take some time also

just fwi

Diane S. · Answer

Hud allows a rent increase of no more than  10% and have written guidelines in certain areas of how much allowed,  you can get up to FMR but must certify that you charge the same as for your non section 8, housing authorities can go to 110% but does require local PHA approval and fha notification, usually if another suitable unit not available, this way if consistent they know where FMRs are too low, section8 has variable tenant contribution, based on their income and type, some have 0%, 30%, or50% there is also a cap on how much they may pay above FMR, FMR rents may vary greatly between suburb and city, a 3br could vary 790s to 1290s city easy enough to look up

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html#2017

from hud  training guidebooks

Acceptability Criteria

• There must be at least one window in both the living room and each sleeping room

• The living room and each sleeping space must have at least two electrical outlets in proper

operating condition. Permanent overhead or wall-mounted light fixtures may count as one of

the required electrical outlets.

Any sleeping room must have at least one window. If the window was designed to be

opened, it must be in proper working order.

• During initial and annual inspections of pre-1978 units that are occupied or will be occupied

by families with children under 6 years of age, the inspector must conduct a visual

assessment for deteriorated paint surfaces and the owner must stabilize deteriorated surfaces.

Applicable areas include painted surfaces within the dwelling unit, exterior painted surfaces

associated with the dwelling unit, and common areas of the building through which residents

must pass to gain access to the unit and areas frequented by resident children under six years

of age, including play areas and child care facilities.

most likely with no egress will not be approved as 5br because they wont know for sure who will occupy each room, fire codes and all , just probably was a nonissue with current family make up, also basement railings spacing as opposed to living space

on the other hand if she buys it, she can put who she wants where after they are no longer inspecting

HUD has a program that the voucher amount goes to mortgage, but homeownership vouchers are not available everywhere, she would still have to qualify for a mortgage based on disability payments, there are local and state agencies that may help her also

Is she currently qualified for a 3br with just her and her son? she may have a 2 br voucher and the 3 br rent was in that range

Jeffrey K. · Answer

To be honest, I use Section 8 to get highest possible rate. If there is room to increase rent to HUD's fair market rate (FMR) I would increase the rent even if new tenants don't move in. In my experience, section 8 tenants don't usually care about rent increases as they only pay 30%. As a side note, housing authorities will go up to 110% of FMR without necessitating HUD approval. Diane is right though, there may be a limit on family size and FMR is based on bedrooms not number of adults. So if you were expecting a rent increase based on family size, this wont be possible unless they appeal directly to HUD. This will probably take time and is not a guarantee of an increased rate. IMO, if you want to keep the current tenant, the current tenant is responsible/takes care of the place and you can get more rent do it. Thats a win win. As a side note, i believe section 8 security deposit is capped at 1 months rent. You may be able to get more money to insulate yourself against wear and tear, but its probably not going to be a lot.

However, in my area there is a serious lack of section 8 rentals. Therefore, I have found it extremely easy to re rent units. So, this is may be a possibility. However, there is a lot to be said for a good, low maintenance, tentant.

Nick G. · Answer

@Debbie J. To answer the leading question, yes, you should 100% without a doubt ask for more rent, as well as additional security deposit too if applicable.

Or, just politely decline the addition of more tenants.

Diane S. · Answer

sorry to hear troubles, use go section 8 avoid we take 8 site, didn't see her boyfriend was living there too... well they don't usually push enforcement that is hard to prove, he said she said kind of thing, but if extra people living there that have an income it is possible they could be liable to owe section 8 refund of over payments, hard to prove unless boyfriend actually documents it somehow, such as tax returns etc. , a thought was if any amount of communication left, maybe some kind of settlement can be reached, say if moves out by date will not turn her in to hud etc, (document),  you will not know final damages till moved out, next time don't replace with expensive stuff, assume will have to replaced with each tenant, if doesn't you will be ahead, use vinyl flooring, such as the vinyl wood look stuff, easy to replace sections, fake wood stuff doesn't wear well, retouch hard wood if you have, repaint with white easy to match, shop habitat restores if you can

Strange what people will post out in public isn't it, if it were me I would read other friends/family posts as well since they are public just fyi, but cant really use as well as officers could, but may give you heads up,  fed investigating we had to document everything and build a huge casefile, more hours than you may have, just try to get out as painless as you can, at least she is moving, be glad she doesn't claim you were responsible for flood, miscarriage, permanent health issues etc, 40 miles isn't really that far, but consider a prop management if too much stress

Debbie J. · Answer

Update, we submitted for a 5% increase.  They approved an even $50 but not $57.  That works, however as the DRAMA has ensued we have discovered we need to evict her.

Because:

After a 5:00 am call reporting a flooded basement last week, we spent 12 hours in the home.  It is now our opinion that denied boyfriend moved in anyway.  The baby--miscarriage----riiiiigggghhhht.   Tenant has become increasingly obstinate, although she needed the basement rescued, she DID NOT want us in the home, was very hateful, refused to run the air and fans to help dry carpets at the same time threatening us with a potential mold issue.   Someone did talk her into running the ventilation to dry out.  Weeds a foot high all around, neglect and continued abuse on the home.  Wouldn't even agree to allow US to do the yard work needed.  This screams tenant hiding things.  We were prepared to take photos and start documenting a plan for eviction when we finally gained entry for a final check of the dry basement last night.  AND found she had moving boxes in the kitchen and seems to be packing.  A quick Facebook search found she ISO  a new rental property as of Aug 1.  Found a post asking for advice how to get red hair dye out of light brown carpeting to prepare for her inspection.   And finally--a post announcing on July 8 that HER boyfriend was removing his things from the property.  Yep, you told me so....   I cannot believe some of the things she actually posted.  Now that she is looking again, she has removed the post about hair dye in the carpet.  I do have screen shots.....  Not sure if the boyfriend moving his things is solid enough for HUD to take action against her.  I have read this kind of thing is pretty hard to prove and HUD rarely acts on these reports.

SO, we have seen the inside of the property and know what our repair list is, will most likely get 30 days notice since it is HUD.  No tenants skipping in the middle of the night with no notice.  I really hate having property 40 miles away as it is harder to keep an eye on it.  So, anyone know if local West Central Office helps connect with new renters?  I see this GOSection8 site.  Anyone try that one?

Debbie J. · Answer

Update, HUD told her she cannot add the boyfriend.  Only girlfriend most likely because she is pregnant with grandchild.  We can live with that.  Submitting for a cost of living increase.  Thank you everyone for your input!

Debbie J. · Answer

Really appreciate the hard numbers we are getting here!

Yes, there are going to be  three additional instead of two.  We know that, but she doesn't seem to know that.  She had three kids when she moved there, one moved out.   We expected her contribution to change when that happened, but it didn't.   It does seem to get smaller all the time.  The kids remaining are under 18.  We also realize the two added teens are not related to her, but baby will be.  Assuming unwed mother may qualify for her own voucher? And likely, since her voucher is for 3 bdr the basement bedroom windows are not an issue yet.  She is figuring they will allow her 2 people per bedroom on existing voucher.

No extra people living there yet, we have been in and out.  Just did some rehabbing on the place.  This family has nothing.  Not even enough beds.  We did try to help locate furniture for them initially, however, she had to learn a hard lesson, as she turned down what we located in favor of furniture they had rented.....  Now the rented items are gone.  And she lost on items we located for little or free.

She meets with HUD tomorrow.  Will see what they tell her, their feedback may change her mind.

I stopped and spoke with someone at HUD today.  Not at liberty to discuss her situation with them, addressed our rent amount and possible raise.   Explained the rehabbing we have done and recent increase in taxes and insurance with no raise in two years.  They said to just explain these items and show new raised rent amount.  Just a conversation in passing, said they thought our rent was probably pretty good for the area.  I asked if there was a set amount we needed to stay in for a raise and was told no.  However, not sure I got the full scoop here, would assume even 10% to be high.  We are not going to push that envelope.  Searching for rentals in the town show only 2 available and neither comparable.  When I lived there and had more properties I knew the local rents better.  I think we will go with 5% for now, that is very fair and won't rock the boat much for anyone, and let them deal with her on possibility of rent adjustment for additions.

Section 8 Tenant wants to add 2 more-should we ask for more rent?

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