Can I deny based on my husband's experience with people's kids?

General Landlording & Rental Properties
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Can I deny based on my husband's experience with people's kids?

Jennifer Rysdam
Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, MN · Member since 2017 · 518 posts · 354 votes

I own an 8-plex in MN. I had someone apply and when I told hubby (who is a high school social studies teacher) that she had 3 kids he asked how old and what is the last name. Apparently her oldest is one of my husband's students and is a very belligerent and disrespectful jerk who is always in trouble. Not sure I want him in my building. I'm not even sure she'll qualify because of income, but can I deny based on that? 

Thanks,

Jennifer

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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y

As the owner you may not discriminate but you do not ever need to accept any applicant you do not want. I have rejected applicants due to no other reason than their attitude or appearance. You may do the same and have no obligation to inform them of the reason. When rejecting you always avoid giving a reason and simply send a generic rejection unless your state law dictates otherwise.

Ignore the fear mongers that constantly throw out the "Fair Housing Boogie Man". This has nothing to do with fair housing protection.  

In this case you are not rejecting due to family status, which is protected, you are rejection due to a undesirable fit. Any landlord that interviews a applicant and encounters a undesirable behaviour, attitude etc. has the right to reject. I would not waste time or energy screening these applicants since you have already identified the fact that they are not acceptable. Continue accepting applicants until you find the one you want and inform all others that you have selected a applicant and the unit is rented.

Never accept any applicant that you do not want regardless of the reason. Remember you will have to live with your decision.

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  • David Tyrell
    Investor · Huntersville, NC · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    You might want to read up on the fair housing laws. See if there is a protected class in there that fits your description .
    0Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    SURE...if you want to violate Federal Law. If so, you can be fined, etc.....LOTS OF MONEY....and this is not what you are in business for. Remember FRESHCORN--FRSHCRN--the acronym for the protected classes.

    NO---you cannot deny children. That is ILLEGAL...and also BAD business IMO. 

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    As the owner you may not discriminate but you do not ever need to accept any applicant you do not want. I have rejected applicants due to no other reason than their attitude or appearance. You may do the same and have no obligation to inform them of the reason. When rejecting you always avoid giving a reason and simply send a generic rejection unless your state law dictates otherwise.

    Ignore the fear mongers that constantly throw out the "Fair Housing Boogie Man". This has nothing to do with fair housing protection.  

    In this case you are not rejecting due to family status, which is protected, you are rejection due to a undesirable fit. Any landlord that interviews a applicant and encounters a undesirable behaviour, attitude etc. has the right to reject. I would not waste time or energy screening these applicants since you have already identified the fact that they are not acceptable. Continue accepting applicants until you find the one you want and inform all others that you have selected a applicant and the unit is rented.

    Never accept any applicant that you do not want regardless of the reason. Remember you will have to live with your decision.

    10Reply
  • Kim Meredith HamptonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · St Petersburg · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Find something else to deny them, you will really get yourself in trouble based on familial status. Do you have a rental selection criteria that you base your applicants; I.e. 3x the rents monthly rental income, no bancruptcy, etc... Please remember to be fair and consistent across the board, and keep all notes, texts etc...
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  • Steve RozenbergPro Member
    Specialist · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

     I would suggest having written qualifications and follows your policy and procedures if you deviate from that and they finally federal lawsuit on you you wish you had in many ways 

    If they do not fit your qualifications that are  written down and apply to every single applicant then you're OK if you deviate from that and bend the rules you could be violating the fair housing or a discrimination law 

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Bottom line in this situation is the rejection is not based on their family status. You are not saying "I do not want to rent to anyone with children" you are saying one of the applicants is unacceptable due to personality issues. Adult, child, pet makes no difference and not relevant to Fair Housing.

    5Reply
  • Andrew Acuna
    Investor · Mission, TX · Member since 2017 · 220 posts · 135 votes
    9y
    Jennifer Rysdam to answer your question directly, yes you can. Jerk is not a protected class. You CANNOT deny based on family status, but if the members of said family are terrible you absolutely can.
    6Reply
  • Jennifer Rysdam
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, MN · Member since 2017 · 518 posts · 354 votes
    9y

    @John Thedford I think you misread my post. I didn't say anything about denying because she HAS children. I have 6 of my own kids. I'm denying based on my husband's experience with this teenager. I love kids, but do not want a child in my building that has no respect for rules or authority. In this situation I know that she won't qualify based on her own information, but am just asking for future reference. 

    1Reply
  • Jennifer Rysdam
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, MN · Member since 2017 · 518 posts · 354 votes
    9y

    Thanks for all the great answers. I have other reasons I can deny this one for, but wanted the info for future reference. As much info as you can get on the parents, you can't always get much on the kids, and there isn't much literature/law that talks about this issue. I'm thankful I have a hubby that is familiar with some of the kids. He's a great teacher/coach that has a great relationships with his students, so if he has something bad to report about one of them I can rest assured that it's a major issue.

    1Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y

    If you have a set guideline for how you screen tenants and you decided to not follow it on certain instances and then follow it in other instances it's asking for trouble. The kid may be a jerk at school but the model child at home. You just don't know since you aren't in his home 24/7 you're just jumping to assumptions about how you think he will act when at home. 

    0Reply
  • Cody L.
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    ******* kids are a protected class? Tenants can deny renting from you for whatever reason they want. A property owner should be able to do the same. I realize big government pinheads have put all sorts of rules in place to tell people what they can and can't do with their own property but if you have a reasonable suspicion they'll be bad tenants (beyond the "protected classes") then you'd be foolish to not protect your livelihood IMO
    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Shhhhhhh Cody don't tell landlords to take necessary and responsible steps to protect their investments. You will have the moral police all over your case. 

    From my personal experience there is no Fair Housing or Human Rights codes that can not be worked around. No landlord need openly break the law to disallow any individual they choose. You simply must have the right reason to justify your decision to reject. The list of justifiable reason is endless assuming you properly design your screening criteria.

    However in this OPs case there is no reason to make excuses. Deny and move on.

    1Reply
  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Yea. You just can't deny them BECAUSE they have kids.
    1Reply
  • Bryan Reid
    Real Estate Agent · Lexington, KY · Member since 2017 · 68 posts · 44 votes
    9y

    When I reject an applicant for a reason other than income/credit/etc. (something concrete) I usually just write my rationale on the lease application.  Date it and save it as documentation.  You don't have to provide any reason for rejection to the applicant - just be sure you have a valid reason in the very unlikely event you would actually need it.

    Your 'valid reason' can be almost anything OTHER than protected class.

    I frequently reject applicants because they didn't show up on time for a showing appointment, were rude or obnoxious, etc.  My application has an 'office comments' box just for me to write notes to myself about why I rejected said jerk even though his income and credit were good.

    0Reply
  • Deanna McCormick
    Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    YOur criteria, is set on adults.. you can't screen the kids. You can set occupancy limits on your building but it needs to be consistent. 

    @Bryan Reid  I'd shy away from adding any comments on any application form that could come back to haunt you.. only notation I would ever put would be on separate paper with declined and copy of deny letter to applicant. 

    1Reply
  • Mark Forest
    Real Estate Investor · Fenton, MI · Member since 2008 · 946 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    At a recent showing i had two parents with three kids come to check out my house. The girl was fine, but the two little boys acted like they were on hyper sugar caffeine pills. They immediatly started sliding on my floors and crashing into the walls. I told the parents to monitor their kids, but they barely made any effort to correct them. They seemed to think it was  cute. Can you imagine what my house would look like after a year with these two brats? Fortunatly they had prior evictions (I think i know why), so i rejected them based on that.

    The control the government has over us landlords is far too restrictive.

    1Reply
  • Michael Noto
    Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Jennifer Rysdam You're getting a little ahead of yourself in my opinion.  Let them fill out their applications and evaluate them from there.  What if the parent has 800 credit and a great job?  Or on the flip side, what if the parent does not even come close to your minimum requirements?

    Let things play out, these things tend to work themselves out on their own.

    1Reply
  • Jennifer Rysdam
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, MN · Member since 2017 · 518 posts · 354 votes
    9y

    @Michael Noto I already looked at the woman's MN rap sheet online. She had a 91 in a 70 last November, 2 months after moving to the state, with her 5 year old not in a car seat. This gave her a fine which says it's in collections. That alone will get her denied. I was just asking because the question came up and it's just something that would be good to know.
    I wouldn't even have questioned it but when I got home from showing her the apartment I had mentioned to hubby that she had 3 kids. He asked the ages and then the last name once he realized one was in high school. He just shook his head and said that her son was one of the worst kids he has to deal with at school. 

    I already have an 11 year old at the building that called my 13 year old son a f@cker for no reason when we were there mowing and cleaning one day. I heard him yell across the building and call another boy a c@nt one day. He eats bananas and oranges and throws the peels all over the grounds and common areas. I've talked to the parents and all they say is they don't know what to do with him, but they are just as bad. They have screaming/cussing fights with each other that everyone else can hear. I certainly don't want another one of those kids/families. We did foster care for 6 years and had some pretty difficult kids. There isn't much you can do to correct the behavior of kids who just don't care about anything. I just don't want to go there right now with another one, especially when it would be a year lease. At lease with the 11 year old's family they are on a month to month now so I can do something about it.

    Thanks :)

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